Theres no point in saying what you think we wont find out whats happened until the AAIB do their report!
P.S Trust me it wasnt pilot error!
BA near miss
Great thread, there's summin odd about it all and my conspiracy theory inclined mind was workin over board....
Gordon Brown aide watching disaster from terminal - oh fok
Gordon Brown - if we don't get to China an meet up with the Rothschilds we can say goodbye to winning the next election.
GB Aide to BAE chief - make sure everyone’s a fekin hero!
GB - great, now let’s go (and flush what’s left of our manufacturing industry down the toilet) to China!
I actually met GB and his aide a few years back when they came to show off the shining 'new media' industry thriving in Dundee. The company went into liquidation about 6 months later!
Very odd people, more fake tan than a Dundee slapper and about as much charisma as a plank of wood. The aide tho was scary, led GB around like a lost child. When you hear about GB being a strong fist or what ever crap they say about him I'm convinced it's really about his aide.
Gordon Brown aide watching disaster from terminal - oh fok
Gordon Brown - if we don't get to China an meet up with the Rothschilds we can say goodbye to winning the next election.
GB Aide to BAE chief - make sure everyone’s a fekin hero!
GB - great, now let’s go (and flush what’s left of our manufacturing industry down the toilet) to China!
I actually met GB and his aide a few years back when they came to show off the shining 'new media' industry thriving in Dundee. The company went into liquidation about 6 months later!
Very odd people, more fake tan than a Dundee slapper and about as much charisma as a plank of wood. The aide tho was scary, led GB around like a lost child. When you hear about GB being a strong fist or what ever crap they say about him I'm convinced it's really about his aide.
http://www.rathmhor.com | Coaching, training, consultancy
Meh, not heard of icing in the FADEC before 
I’d have thought any sort of icing would have been apparent before that point anyway.
Our engines (GE CF6's) only have one or two sense lines going to the FADEC ECU, and these use air pressure. With FADEC systems the feedback & control systems are handled by electronics and a wiring harness instead of pressurised fuel lines and MEC (mechanical engine control) in the pre FADEC days which could in theory have been susceptible to icing. I did think though there may have been an issue with the aircraft talking to the FADEC system in the case of the BA 777. There are two harnesses/electronics on an engine; FADEC which ‘talks’ to the aircraft via the engine’s ECU and the harness which is integrated with the aircrafts own harness). thrust scheduling, engine monitoring and fuel burn is controlled by the former. The latter mostly deals with the accessories; the generator, starter and hydraulic pumps etc… The accessories also include at least one glorified Lamovia oil/fuel heat exchanger. The oil is generally rather warm, so this unit is used to thaw the fuel which is generally rather slushy at high altitude. Again, I think slushing would have made itself known before this point. Pre and post filter fuel pressure is monitored for exactly this sort of thing.
It would surprise me therefore if it was what the article claims. I’d still suspect it’s a systems failure relating to the FADEC, but that’s fairly specialised knowledge, so I’ve no fecking idea.
/Spent last night fitting FADEC cables faction.
Had a few engines in recently with ice ingestion, but that would be very apparent from the off. Total failure of rods and pistons style apparent.
I’d have thought any sort of icing would have been apparent before that point anyway.Our engines (GE CF6's) only have one or two sense lines going to the FADEC ECU, and these use air pressure. With FADEC systems the feedback & control systems are handled by electronics and a wiring harness instead of pressurised fuel lines and MEC (mechanical engine control) in the pre FADEC days which could in theory have been susceptible to icing. I did think though there may have been an issue with the aircraft talking to the FADEC system in the case of the BA 777. There are two harnesses/electronics on an engine; FADEC which ‘talks’ to the aircraft via the engine’s ECU and the harness which is integrated with the aircrafts own harness). thrust scheduling, engine monitoring and fuel burn is controlled by the former. The latter mostly deals with the accessories; the generator, starter and hydraulic pumps etc… The accessories also include at least one glorified Lamovia oil/fuel heat exchanger. The oil is generally rather warm, so this unit is used to thaw the fuel which is generally rather slushy at high altitude. Again, I think slushing would have made itself known before this point. Pre and post filter fuel pressure is monitored for exactly this sort of thing.
It would surprise me therefore if it was what the article claims. I’d still suspect it’s a systems failure relating to the FADEC, but that’s fairly specialised knowledge, so I’ve no fecking idea.
/Spent last night fitting FADEC cables faction.Had a few engines in recently with ice ingestion, but that would be very apparent from the off. Total failure of rods and pistons style apparent.
Interesting report. I would take issue with the following though:-
"As the handling pilot, first officer John Coward would have been preparing to take manual control below 1,000 feet"
The pilots have to carry out a certain number of completely auto landings per month/annually. Modern aircraft and ILS systems are now so reliable that this is now down to 0/0, zero cloud base and zero visibility, which is CAT 3C. The manual limitations used to be 200ft and 800 metres when I was flying, this was CAT 1 and as low as we could go in a helicopter.
It takes a lot of confidence and butt clenching initially to do this for real, but the computers rule, and I believe the safety record is almost, if not, 100%.
So the F/O would not have been preparing to take control, it was a practice auto landing all the way down. He would have had his hands ready regardless, but if nothing had gone wrong he would not have touched the controls. The A/C would have then taxied itself back to the loading bay. No use it landing in 0/0 if it then can not get off the runway.
So if this engine problem had happened in fog the pilot would have been totally blind as regards visual reference points, but would have probably practised in the F/S. However I doubt very little that he could have done, he could not see the perimeter fence or the runway, so unable to extend the glide. The auto system would have carried on but landed shorter.
Nightmare scenario for the crew, but fortunately just hypothetical.
tut
"As the handling pilot, first officer John Coward would have been preparing to take manual control below 1,000 feet"
The pilots have to carry out a certain number of completely auto landings per month/annually. Modern aircraft and ILS systems are now so reliable that this is now down to 0/0, zero cloud base and zero visibility, which is CAT 3C. The manual limitations used to be 200ft and 800 metres when I was flying, this was CAT 1 and as low as we could go in a helicopter.
It takes a lot of confidence and butt clenching initially to do this for real, but the computers rule, and I believe the safety record is almost, if not, 100%.
So the F/O would not have been preparing to take control, it was a practice auto landing all the way down. He would have had his hands ready regardless, but if nothing had gone wrong he would not have touched the controls. The A/C would have then taxied itself back to the loading bay. No use it landing in 0/0 if it then can not get off the runway.
So if this engine problem had happened in fog the pilot would have been totally blind as regards visual reference points, but would have probably practised in the F/S. However I doubt very little that he could have done, he could not see the perimeter fence or the runway, so unable to extend the glide. The auto system would have carried on but landed shorter.
Nightmare scenario for the crew, but fortunately just hypothetical.
tut
Further to the above, there are some situations that you can not plan for, especially in a helicopter.
Flying back from the Shell Brent Field to Aberdeen about twenty years ago, S76 but our models did not have an auto pilot, I had an engine failure about 50 miles from the airfield, which in itself is no big deal. Unfortunately the forecasters had got it wrong, and the Aberdeen weather was closing in. On top of that the good engine was surging, I had nine passengers and no co-pilot. The S76 is single pilot rated and this was before the Oil companies laid down mandatory two crew.
I obviously had an alternate airfield, Perth in this case, but it did not have an ILS system, and I needed to get down whilst I still had one fairly good engine left. I was confident about flying down the ILS to well below my legal limits, we used to practice it unofficially, thank goodness, when we were two crew, and I had twenty years of flying behind me, but there was a chance that I could lose my licence. The Tower got my Bristows General Manager on air, and they decided in an emergency like this, it was my decision, but please try not to screw it up.
I had to carry out a faster run on landing than normal because of lack of power, but this gives more stability anyway. I did not know what the cloud base or visibilty finally were when I touched down, I was glued to the instruments especialy the centre line and glidepath needles.
Main thing though was that it worked, but I had to taxi onto the grass and wait for a coach to pick us up.
I had briefed the passengers that they were all going to die, but they were oilies coming off their two weeks, so just wanted to get to the pub.
There was an official hearing of course, but they decided that the emergency meant that I could go below legal minimums if aircraft safety or lives were at stake.
tut
Flying back from the Shell Brent Field to Aberdeen about twenty years ago, S76 but our models did not have an auto pilot, I had an engine failure about 50 miles from the airfield, which in itself is no big deal. Unfortunately the forecasters had got it wrong, and the Aberdeen weather was closing in. On top of that the good engine was surging, I had nine passengers and no co-pilot. The S76 is single pilot rated and this was before the Oil companies laid down mandatory two crew.
I obviously had an alternate airfield, Perth in this case, but it did not have an ILS system, and I needed to get down whilst I still had one fairly good engine left. I was confident about flying down the ILS to well below my legal limits, we used to practice it unofficially, thank goodness, when we were two crew, and I had twenty years of flying behind me, but there was a chance that I could lose my licence. The Tower got my Bristows General Manager on air, and they decided in an emergency like this, it was my decision, but please try not to screw it up.
I had to carry out a faster run on landing than normal because of lack of power, but this gives more stability anyway. I did not know what the cloud base or visibilty finally were when I touched down, I was glued to the instruments especialy the centre line and glidepath needles.
Main thing though was that it worked, but I had to taxi onto the grass and wait for a coach to pick us up.
I had briefed the passengers that they were all going to die, but they were oilies coming off their two weeks, so just wanted to get to the pub.
There was an official hearing of course, but they decided that the emergency meant that I could go below legal minimums if aircraft safety or lives were at stake.
tut
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deano15482
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deano15482
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Andy
Just spent 30 mins chatting to Steve Rooke at Ariel. They really are a helpful and friendly bunch there.
It was just about using the larger crankshaft pulley, but he was so interested in SE, our cars, what we did with them, my life story, how you were getting on etc, but really useful as he said that they will always be happy to give advice.
I am just about to send him down your last report, as he said that he would love to read it and that is what their cars are for.
tut
Just spent 30 mins chatting to Steve Rooke at Ariel. They really are a helpful and friendly bunch there.
It was just about using the larger crankshaft pulley, but he was so interested in SE, our cars, what we did with them, my life story, how you were getting on etc, but really useful as he said that they will always be happy to give advice.
I am just about to send him down your last report, as he said that he would love to read it and that is what their cars are for.
tut
Awesome. What's the system that get the plane from the runway to the gate? I thought (and I know SFA about these things) that Standard Terminal Arrival Routes / ILS got you from top of decent to a runway, but didn't realise there was anything other than flashy lights and ground ATC to get planes to a specific gate. There must be something more accurate than VOR behind it too. Are the taxi routes in the flight computer too? How does it work?tut wrote:The A/C would have then taxied itself back to the loading bay. No use it landing in 0/0 if it then can not get off the runway.
Tut/pete/tenkfeet: Does the flight computer actually know how to get to the gate on its own? Is the same taxi route followed every time from runway to gate? Surely other ground traffic could get in the way?
Just curious, but not really sure what to Google for...
Edit: just read more about the ILS, but none the wise about what happens after a landing...
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