Project V6 Elise

[Woodsport]

To be honest i stand by those comments, i may not have done a 4 cylinder Elise swap, but i've done countless Mr2 versions of the same sort of thing and i really can't see how any swap where the engine is that size costing £10k, certainly the V6 install is considerably more difficult than any 4 cyl swap just because of the sheer dimensions alone.

The most difficult of Mr2 4 cylinder swaps never costs more than £5k(supplied and fitted), and even then that was a 3s-gte installed into a FWD Corolla, and that was a show-stopper featured in Banzai.

I've no desire to get involved with 4 cyl installs on the Elise, but as a professional engine transplanter i cannot see where the cost is.

[OlberJ]

It's down to custom made parts Paul. Whereas you're doing most of it in house, these other 4 pot kits use off the shelf, bolt in parts, which pushes the price up.

I think you can buy most of the install kits as parts only. Not sure the labour on top of that is very much at all.

Aye, it would be quite possible to put in a 4 pot for £5k and make a good job of it but people have the expectation of machined, laser cut, brand new parts.

[roadboy]

I'm pleased woody has commented in the way he has. He makes some valid points.

The only reason the thread on SELOC went the way it did was due to Paul "Expressing himself" about other conversions.

Sticking to the facts about his own conversion and nothing else will make it much easier to keep the thread on topic.

In terms of 4 pot conversion costs, here's a bit of a breakdown of the Honda costs to mull over:

Engine, box, loom, ECU, ancilliaries, etc. - £2000
Hondata ECU ~ £400
Driveshafts ~ £750
Exhaust manifold ~ £800

So you've got nearly 4 grand before you get to engine mounts, plumbing, wiring, heatshielding, mapping, labour, warranty provision.

Something to think about before criticising other conversions perhaps.

/2p

Dan

[Gourlay83]

I'm pleased woody has commented in the way he has. He makes some valid points.

The only reason the thread on SELOC went the way it did was due to Paul "Expressing himself" about other conversions.

Sticking to the facts about his own conversion and nothing else will make it much easier to keep the thread on topic.

In terms of 4 pot conversion costs, here's a bit of a breakdown of the Honda costs to mull over:

Engine, box, loom, ECU, ancilliaries, etc. - £2000
Hondata ECU ~ £400
Driveshafts ~ £750
Exhaust manifold ~ £800

So you've got nearly 4 grand before you get to engine mounts, plumbing, wiring, heatshielding, mapping, labour, warranty provision.

Something to think about before criticising other conversions perhaps.

/2p

Dan

I think the advantage that Mr Woodsport (don't know your name, sorry) is that he makes all the mounts, manifolds etc from scratch meaning that all he has to worry about is raw materials and labour. So he isn't paying lots of different companies (who all have profits to make) to make parts then adding another mark up on top of that.

As for the drives shafts - if you get only the shafts made and assemble them yourself using the inner joint from your donor engine and a new outer you can save a fair chunk. I looked into getting 10 sets made, as pretty sure there is a market for them.

I believe the under £5000 is easily achievable but not by using the normal (tried and tested) sources for parts. Guess it's apples for apples.

Alan

[tut]

Did you manage to get a price for the driveshafts Alan?

tut

[roadboy]

I believe the under £5000 is easily achievable but not by using the normal (tried and tested) sources for parts. Guess it's apples for apples.

Alan

How much did yours cost all in Alan? Including the K-pro and mapping, etc.

Cheers

Dan

[robin]

Whilst I can see that the raw cost of goods might be around the 5K mark for some installations, I don't begrudge the installer the other 5K to cover profit (they have to eat!), recoup R&D time and cover warranty. I guess is depends on your expectation and you value your (and the installer's) time.

That's not to say I'm about to shell out 10K on a conversion, but just that I can see why people charge what they do. I can also see how somebody who specializes in it and manages to build up a good volume of conversions can afford to run on smaller margins as they have a larger installed base, fewer (relatively) warranty issues, etc.

The real question is what is the conversion worth - selling products based on what the raw materials cost only makes sense when they are a commodity - if the conversion makes the car special then people will place a value on that.

Cheers,
Robin

[tut]

Original S1 rear alloy hub carrier complete with bearing £88. Replacement steel one £300 plus.

That is just highway robbery.

tut

[roadboy]

I made less than £1000 profit (including the 3-5 days labour involved in doing it) on every Honda conversion I have done. Fact!

Every one of them cost in excess of £10k.

Dan

[Gourlay83]

I believe the under £5000 is easily achievable but not by using the normal (tried and tested) sources for parts. Guess it's apples for apples.

Alan

How much did yours cost all in Alan? Including the K-pro and mapping, etc.

Cheers

Dan

Mapped it myself Dan, original cost was just under £5k but my engine wasn't £2000 (lucky to find one under £2500 now) then i added the pro as the engine was lean and lumpy. So say £5.5 - £6.

Alan

P.S i wan't picking holes, almost agreeing with you actually.

[robin]

Hi Dan,

I didn't mean to imply you got 5K in your pocket for each one you did - just pointing out that there's a big difference between a costed list of parts and a completed conversion; at 1K I would say it wasn't worth the effort, though as I said before it depends on how you value your time - for a hobbyist the time is essentially free; for a business you have to weigh up the profit against the opportunity cost - if there's a reasonable stream of servicing/normal repairs work out there, why bother doing conversions at 1K each?

As for the conversion in this thread I hope it turns into a mutually beneficial development - Paul has to make money to make it worthwhile doing and customers have to be happy with the price.

Cheers,
Robin

[Gourlay83]

Did you manage to get a price for the driveshafts Alan?

tut

Tut, i did enquire about it but struggling to find the time to finalise details.

I think we need to order at least 5 sets, but makes it financially viable. I'll phone you Monday. I might need to measure your shafts before ordering just to double check.

Alan

[OlberJ]

I made less than £1000 profit (including the 3-5 days labour involved in doing it) on every Honda conversion I have done. Fact!

Every one of them cost in excess of £10k.

Dan

Am i reading that right, it's 5 days work for £1k profit?

[roadboy]

at 1K I would say it wasn't worth the effort,

That's the conclusion I came to Robin. That's why it makes me laugh so much when people say I have a vested interest.

Thanks Alan, I know you weren't picking holes. I was genuinely interested to know how much yours cost in the end as I hadn't asked before.

Cheers

Dan

[Woodsport]

In terms of 4 pot conversion costs, here's a bit of a breakdown of the Honda costs to mull over:

Engine, box, loom, ECU, ancilliaries, etc. - £2000
Hondata ECU ~ £400
Driveshafts ~ £750
Exhaust manifold ~ £800

So you've got nearly 4 grand before you get to engine mounts, plumbing, wiring, heatshielding, mapping, labour, warranty provision.

Something to think about before criticising other conversions perhaps.

£750 for driveshafts, i had both shafts made for this Elise V6 conversion for £300.

Dan, with all due respect i still don't see £10k, nowhere near it, i have very similar parts costs on some of our builds, take a 3s-gte powered Mk1 Mr2, hardly a drop in conversion, in fact it takes me 4 weeks to build one, not 5 days...i wish!!

Engine and gearbox with all ancilliaries from a Rev 3 Mr2 turbo supplied with warranty £1800
Driveshafts, uprated rear hub conversion £300
Decat, downpipe and rear silencer £400
Sundry/miscellaneous items £200

That comes to a max of £2700, i charge £1950 labour to make all the mounts, plumb it all, wire it all up and show detail the entire install including repainting the engine bay, so that install which is pretty involved by any standard comes in under £5k. Same deal with say a 2zz-ge conversion, i don't know perhaps i'm way undercutting myself?

Sorry but i am not criticising other conversions at all, i am sure they are brilliantly done, i've never once commented on the quality but i can't see why they cost £10k for any 4 cyl engine install and that is my own personal opinion which i am fully entitled to, "expressing myself" is my right on any open forum and all i've said is i think the current 4 cylinder options are too expensive for the amount of parts/labour involved... surely by that thinking a V6 Elise should be more than £10k being considerably more involved? No?

I guess i'd need to do an Elise Honda conversion myself to see what it really costs.