Why don't I like Honda K20's

[C7Steve]

Can we put an end to this now please?

[KingK_series]

If I was converting I'd want an A series, preferably a 998. Unlike a standard K (1400 IME), I've never seen one throw a rod, even when trying pretty hard to do so....


As above, V. Interested in your Rover K work, but why the negativity towards everything else and the irrelevant comparisons? Have read what you've done with genuine interest but too busy at work ATM to reply properly (building engines of sorts as well).

Do you do all the work yourself or develop, CAD/Cam and have someone else cast, Forge & machine? Must require a pretty special machine & manufacturing set-up if you're doing it. Are you doing this as a hobby or as a business? I only as fully developing such one-offs must consume a fair amount of resources?

Because People have been trashing K for years, and this is trying to take the vitriol out, and put sound engineering argument, explanation, possibilities in place to make the choice a more rational one.

yes I have done a lot of design work, with a great deal of help from long standing family friends, for instance David refined my crank design by using his software to calculate correct counterweight mass for the 6 pistons I have designed [yes I have 6 crank designs] David designed the Cosworth F1 V10, his son was technical director at Super Aguri, then Brawn and designed Jenson's championship car [he since resigned BTW because Mercedes so flooded the team with people, he just couldn't get things done]. I have had a lot of help with cam profile design, which is not my trip at all [ and they are my profiles, like every other part now nothing I use bar Rover block and head castings is commercially available] and software development for the ecu's etc etc. Yes I have spent a fortune, but the work is just about done now, one or two more projects and a number of installs to do, and to start with it was merely to illustrate a book. Since then two suppliers who have seen engines want to start a business with me, several Lotus's garages are expressing surprising interest - right now that is not on my mind, just getting the last projects finished is my only concern, then to release all the details next year and write this book -the BTCC engine BTW represents an old build, the definitive engines are different and better.

[woody]

If I was converting I'd want an A series, preferably a 998. Unlike a standard K (1400 IME), I've never seen one throw a rod, even when trying pretty hard to do so....


As above, V. Interested in your Rover K work, but why the negativity towards everything else and the irrelevant comparisons? Have read what you've done with genuine interest but too busy at work ATM to reply properly (building engines of sorts as well).

Do you do all the work yourself or develop, CAD/Cam and have someone else cast, Forge & machine? Must require a pretty special machine & manufacturing set-up if you're doing it. Are you doing this as a hobby or as a business? I only as fully developing such one-offs must consume a fair amount of resources?

Because People have been trashing K for years, and this is trying to take the vitriol out, and put sound engineering argument, explanation, possibilities in place to make the choice a more rational one.

yes I have done a lot of design work, with a great deal of help from long standing family friends, for instance David refined my crank design by using his software to calculate correct counterweight mass for the 6 pistons I have designed [yes I have 6 crank designs] David designed the Cosworth F1 V10, his son was technical director at Super Aguri, then Brawn and designed Jenson's championship car [he since resigned BTW because Mercedes so flooded the team with people, he just couldn't get things done]. I have had a lot of help with cam profile design, which is not my trip at all [ and they are my profiles, like every other part now nothing I use bar Rover block and head castings is commercially available] and software development for the ecu's etc etc. Yes I have spent a fortune, but the work is just about done now, one or two more projects and a number of installs to do, and to start with it was merely to illustrate a book. Since then two suppliers who have seen engines want to start a business with me, several Lotus's garages are expressing surprising interest - right now that is not on my mind, just getting the last projects finished is my only concern, then to release all the details next year and write this book -the BTCC engine BTW represents an old build, the definitive engines are different and better.

Thanks, nice & constructive. I'm off to a meeting now, so short response, sorry.

[r10crw]

[quote="KingK_series3/if this work enables me to produce 220+bhp engines, that are reliable, cost less or same as a honda conversion, can last as long or longer and can be rebuilt for same as a honda or replacement of a honda, at a total engine weight of 80 odd kg vs 140+kg for a honda that makes my point - that the honda market is unnecessary and a mistake. If further I can show you the technical faults of a honda and how it compares to an OE or tuned equivalent K such that the honda GOES less well than a K, ie it runs rough, or is slow revving, that embellishes the argument.


Please let e make it, this thread and past days was not about a BTCC engine, it was about the POSSIBILITIES that engine opened up -[/quote]

Simon,
This is where you have to be careful. I would be very impressed if you can produce and engine that will produce a reliable 220 on an original plenum but on costs you cannot compare it to the honda conversions from the likes of the tuners down south. As Shug says the days of the Honda conversions are already limited with many people doing DIY conversions. I can tell you straight off that these cost around 5K turn key not the 11K honda price you are comparing to and it is this price that your engine will have to compete with.
I love the idea of stable K series engines with 220 horse and hope you will deliver but until you can build these for less than 5K I think you will struggle to sell. On top of this you will be rebuilding not presenting a different engine so the customer doesnt have an engine whilst their one is being done and how long will it take to have the work done???
Craig, really enjoying this BTW, again nice regulation by the mods

[campbell]

Simon,

I have a 94k-mile original K series in my S1 and therefore am starting to look ahead to the prospect of an overhaul at some point.

I'm not in the market for several hundred bhp or the like, however - I just want to make sure that as and when the "bottom end" gets tired or lets go, I put something back together with as much or more reliability as I've had to date. If opportunities to improve the engine arise whilst it's out the car, for little or no more outlay than the "standard" bits, then I'm going to consider those.

For note, I've already got a mildly improved head which I am thrilled with, so that end will not be changing.

I don't do many trackdays, so engine stresses are not high. I just want something which will see out another 100k miles without fuss.

I'm also not interested in a Honda, so you don't need to say a word about why they are not a good choice - you can stay focused on the K

I've been given a suggested route for the overhaul by my long-standing trusted advisor, Robin, but would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Campbell

[KingK_series]

[quote="KingK_series3/if this work enables me to produce 220+bhp engines, that are reliable, cost less or same as a honda conversion, can last as long or longer and can be rebuilt for same as a honda or replacement of a honda, at a total engine weight of 80 odd kg vs 140+kg for a honda that makes my point - that the honda market is unnecessary and a mistake. If further I can show you the technical faults of a honda and how it compares to an OE or tuned equivalent K such that the honda GOES less well than a K, ie it runs rough, or is slow revving, that embellishes the argument.


Please let e make it, this thread and past days was not about a BTCC engine, it was about the POSSIBILITIES that engine opened up -

Simon,
This is where you have to be careful. I would be very impressed if you can produce and engine that will produce a reliable 220 on an original plenum but on costs you cannot compare it to the honda conversions from the likes of the tuners down south. As Shug says the days of the Honda conversions are already limited with many people doing DIY conversions. I can tell you straight off that these cost around 5K turn key not the 11K honda price you are comparing to and it is this price that your engine will have to compete with.
I love the idea of stable K series engines with 220 horse and hope you will deliver but until you can build these for less than 5K I think you will struggle to sell. On top of this you will be rebuilding not presenting a different engine so the customer doesnt have an engine whilst their one is being done and how long will it take to have the work done???
Craig, really enjoying this BTW, again nice regulation by the mods [/quote]


Well the honda costs are not clear - on one side I hear people are diying it for 5 grand - anyone here actually done that? but then I have one Lotus specialist tell me that the honda market is dying for want of quality low miles K20A2s, and they don't like the Z1 etc [?] plus the aftermarket parts for honda are poor quality [like so many K series] and another Honda specialist saying they have no problem getting low mileage K20a2s but in the same breath tell me there are more and more finding themselves replacing honda rods and pistons for an additional £4000+vat....... seems a lot.

So I am totally open to all hondaistas posting on here exactly what it cost to go honda, turn keys and diy, complete honesty please.

IF..... and it is a very big if I were ever tempted to make something of this, and I certainly am no where near doing that practically or theoretically now, the engines would be complete new build drop ins, no part sales, no diy, no take an engine and rebuild it.......I have learn't it takes too long and too many people can't start an engine without fubaring it to go there ..... conversion costs however are nil.

[Shug]

conversion costs however are nil.

Apart from the cost of time in swapping engine yourself, or by a trusted associate (assuming it'd not be done for free) and your costs in supplying a warranty, if you are intending to continue comparing with £10K turnkey installs - although of course there are no costs for brackets etc. Just for clarity.

[KingK_series]

Simon,

I have a 94k-mile original K series in my S1 and therefore am starting to look ahead to the prospect of an overhaul at some point.

I'm not in the market for several hundred bhp or the like, however - I just want to make sure that as and when the "bottom end" gets tired or lets go, I put something back together with as much or more reliability as I've had to date. If opportunities to improve the engine arise whilst it's out the car, for little or no more outlay than the "standard" bits, then I'm going to consider those.

For note, I've already got a mildly improved head which I am thrilled with, so that end will not be changing.

I don't do many trackdays, so engine stresses are not high. I just want something which will see out another 100k miles without fuss.

I'm also not interested in a Honda, so you don't need to say a word about why they are not a good choice - you can stay focused on the K

I've been given a suggested route for the overhaul by my long-standing trusted advisor, Robin, but would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Campbell

You are exactly what the book is being written for, though it may come too late, so that you can build one yourself, there will also be a whole chapter on how to start and run in an engine since that is such a bug bear with new builds - hondas don't have that problem. If on the otherhand I manage to find suitable competent partners for installing, building etc, then maybe there is a commercial future for my engines, that might be an option, but only an option than self builds which is what I intended to encourage when I started all this 6 years ago . That would be the only way to obtain, the cams, the spings, the verniers, the belt, the valves, the tappets, the ignition system, the pistons, liners, rods, cranks, flywheels, oil seals, oil pumps, water pumps, induction, exhaust, dry sumps systems etc etc etc that i have designed, in other words it would be a different engine all togeather and go in a different way, honda or aftermarket K.

[KingK_series]

conversion costs however are nil.

Apart from the cost of time in swapping engine yourself, or by a trusted associate (assuming it'd not be done for free) and your costs in supplying a warranty, if you are intending to continue comparing with £10K turnkey installs - although of course there are no costs for brackets etc. Just for clarity.

Sorry don't understand that? - I was asking people to post honda costs, diy, and turnkey.

[campbell]

You are exactly what the book is being written for, though it may come too late, so that you can build one yourself

Hm. Not sure if my abilities or time demands would allow that but certainly interested to read about it...maybe one of the kids will do it for me one day!

Do you have a rough publication target / deadline?

[Shug]

conversion costs however are nil.

Apart from the cost of time in swapping engine yourself, or by a trusted associate (assuming it'd not be done for free) and your costs in supplying a warranty, if you are intending to continue comparing with £10K turnkey installs - although of course there are no costs for brackets etc. Just for clarity.

Sorry don't understand that? - I was asking people to post honda costs, diy, and turnkey.

Sorry if unclear - you were stating that 'conversion costs' for the K would be zero. Of course, there would be no cost for brackets, mounts and the like, but there would be a cost component for your idea of a total turnkey replacement engine - ie, time involved in changing and warranty. Like I say, only to be clear if it was to be a clear cost comparison between your suggested future route of installing a King K engine versus a turnkey £10K Honda install.

Hope that's clearer.

[KingK_series]

Apart from the cost of time in swapping engine yourself, or by a trusted associate (assuming it'd not be done for free) and your costs in supplying a warranty, if you are intending to continue comparing with £10K turnkey installs - although of course there are no costs for brackets etc. Just for clarity.

Sorry don't understand that? - I was asking people to post honda costs, diy, and turnkey.

Sorry if unclear - you were stating that 'conversion costs' for the K would be zero. Of course, there would be no cost for brackets, mounts and the like, but there would be a cost component for your idea of a total turnkey replacement engine - ie, time involved in changing and warranty. Like I say, only to be clear if it was to be a clear cost comparison between your suggested future route of installing a King K engine versus a turnkey £10K Honda install.

Hope that's clearer.

Yep, thankyou, and you are absolutely right, plus I have no idea how it could or if it would work - I am simply amazed that 3 Lotus specialists have expressed such interest to me in the last few weeks. However it is important to understand that anything I might build will be very different, and that is half the point of the forth coming posts....

[KingK_series]

You are exactly what the book is being written for, though it may come too late, so that you can build one yourself

Hm. Not sure if my abilities or time demands would allow that but certainly interested to read about it...maybe one of the kids will do it for me one day!

Do you have a rough publication target / deadline?

Dunno, still got some work to do

and turbo/hillclimb engines to race next year

then start writing, and all the time I have to make a living to eat and pay for all of this.....

[r10crw]

Ive got all the parts to do a NA sitting in my garage just now (less shafts so allowed 800) and if I was to use the standard manifold it would be less than 5 thousand. That would be everything done and not selling any of the exisitng parts. For the same money I would prefer to stay K series and its this you would need to focus on.
I really think you have an open market just now, nobody can deliver built k series engines for reasonable money. Even those that are considered good in the industry will generally only focus on head work and getting the rest of the work done is a minefield of opinon.
Craig.

[KingK_series]

Ive got all the parts to do a NA sitting in my garage just now (less shafts so allowed 800) and if I was to use the standard manifold it would be less than 5 thousand. That would be everything done and not selling any of the exisitng parts. For the same money I would prefer to stay K series and its this you would need to focus on.
I really think you have an open market just now, nobody can deliver built k series engines for reasonable money. Even those that are considered good in the industry will generally only focus on head work and getting the rest of the work done is a minefield of opinon.
Craig.

Well there may be an opportunity, but I am not an industry, and I am not interested in cheap for cheap's sake, I am interested in quality

quality in reliability

quality in performance

quality in the experience of the engine

and my personal satisfaction in the quality of the engineering.....