Why don't I like Honda K20's

[AlanT]

And now to the rod

the honda also uses the anachronistic 20mm pin, not seen in modern production or competition engines for 40 years!

VW also use them on some of their turbocharged engines.
What's wrong with 20mm wrist pins?

[KingK_series]

And now to the rod

the honda also uses the anachronistic 20mm pin, not seen in modern production or competition engines for 40 years!

VW also use them on some of their turbocharged engines.
What's wrong with 20mm wrist pins?

They are big and heavy, and unnecessary

[philthy]

I like your design of the piston, very lightweight for high revs.

The I-beams are used on high power forced induction cars over the H-beam in all applications that I'm aware of, I would have needed them in my build if I was after more than 600bhp, but they are heavier.

Any videos of these engines being used? there is something about the noise of them thats like nothing else.

I am a big 4g63 fan so I find it hard to understand so many failures so close to the standard power. I cant say Ive heard of it happening to a K20, lost count of the number of rover Ks I have heard needing to be pulled apart.

[KingK_series]

I like your design of the piston, very lightweight for high revs.

I beams are used on high power forced induction cars over the H beam in all applications that I'm aware of, I would have needed them in my build if I was after more than 600bhp.

Thankyou and I agree

the I beams are more expensive than h beams...

[Gourlay83]

It all looks very impressive, couple of things.

I worked for Honda for 7 years, and used the B16/18 & K20 Engines in a number different cars. I've never had a single failure, so find your 7 failures a bit strange and wondering what could be the cause ? i.e over revving a 'road car' spec engine. The way I understand your findings (might be wrong) is people take a Honda K20 with little/no modifications, install it in an elise (or whatever) then go racing. I can only imagine the stresses and strains put on an Engine during a season, including the inevitable over revving when braking into a corner.

Your engine looks impressive, with some clear improvements but have you actually built one and tested it to back up your claims ?

Thanks for sharing, good read so far.

Alan

[KingK_series]

It all looks very impressive, couple of things.

I worked for Honda for 7 years, and used the B16/18 & K20 Engines in a number different cars. I've never had a single failure, so find your 7 failures a bit strange and wondering what could be the cause ? i.e over revving a 'road car' spec engine. The way I understand your findings (might be wrong) is people take a Honda K20 with little/no modifications, install it in an elise (or whatever) then go racing. I can only imagine the stresses and strains put on an Engine during a season, including the inevitable over revving when braking into a corner.

Your engine looks impressive, with some clear improvements but have you actually built one and tested it to back up your claims ?

Thanks for sharing, good read so far.

Alan

Track use and road use are very different things.

Honda Mugen asked asked my piston manufacturer to do a forged piston for a honda K20A2 in [F3 I think?] race series.......... they were told the stock rod wouldn't work - too fragile, Honda Mugen of course new better and insisted the OE rod was fine, First race engines threw the rods.......... egg everywhere.

I also spoke to the MD at Atom and heard that they had brand new K20s throw rods on their first run out of the factory.... it is a poor design, B16 is a much better engine.


yes I have run these engines and they do work.......


This was the very first..........







that engine went 5 seasons of balls out racing before it's first rebuild.......... a 9000rpm engine on a stock Rover crank

and won every race it entered except those when the Quaife 6sp seq broke, thankfully now replaced by a hugely successful Sadev 6 sp SEQ.

[Gareth]

The first pic...is that spraying out coolant?

Cool pics.
I'm enjoying the read. I know feck all about engines but still a nice read.

[KingK_series]

The first pic...is that spraying out coolant?

Cool pics.
I'm enjoying the read. I know feck all about engines but still a nice read.

not that much coolant in an Elise

- no but that car, engine and gearbox get a real hammering, and now the sadev is in it is totally reliable.....

[mckeann]

i've avoided posting on this thread for a while now, but have to say something as my findings (as a racer, not an engineer) couldnt be further from yours.

I had a honda engine in my car for 40K miles, used for plenty of track action, including a full years racing. I never had a single engine issue, a couple of small kit issues, but nothing too fiddly or costly. I've also driven plenty of 300 bhp JRSC honda's none of them have blown up at my far from delicate right foot. Infact, even a 400bhp rotrax SC engine managed to survive 10 laps of abuse. I do know of a couple that have failed, mainly due to poor mapping overheating the pistons and causing failures, but i also saw my fair share of K's in bits when i raced.

You talk about smoothness of the K compared to a honda, and again, i couldnt disagree more. Every K i have ever driven has felt rough and unwilling to rev compared to a honda. I cant explain it as your figures obviously disagree, but put someone in 2 cars back to back and i bet you they will say the honda is smoother and more willing to rev.

[KingK_series]

i've avoided posting on this thread for a while now, but have to say something as my findings (as a racer, not an engineer) couldnt be further from yours.

I had a honda engine in my car for 40K miles, used for plenty of track action, including a full years racing. I never had a single engine issue, a couple of small kit issues, but nothing too fiddly or costly. I've also driven plenty of 300 bhp JRSC honda's none of them have blown up at my far from delicate right foot. Infact, even a 400bhp rotrax SC engine managed to survive 10 laps of abuse. I do know of a couple that have failed, mainly due to poor mapping overheating the pistons and causing failures, but i also saw my fair share of K's in bits when i raced.

You talk about smoothness of the K compared to a honda, and again, i couldnt disagree more. Every K i have ever driven has felt rough and unwilling to rev compared to a honda. I cant explain it as your figures obviously disagree, but put someone in 2 cars back to back and i bet you they will say the honda is smoother and more willing to rev.

Here is a stock Rover K series cankset 26,8kg




here is a honda K20A2 crankset 31.5kg




4.7kg more to spin up!


Here is a honda k20A2 flywheel, showing no crank to flywheel dowel, there is 4-5mm of radial play!!! - this could never be balanced with the best of efforts.



here is the stock Rover flywheel showing the crank flywheel dowel which is a good tight fit [flywhhel has been in the garden a while!]

[KingK_series]

i've avoided posting on this thread for a while now, but have to say something as my findings (as a racer, not an engineer) couldnt be further from yours.

I had a honda engine in my car for 40K miles, used for plenty of track action, including a full years racing. I never had a single engine issue, a couple of small kit issues, but nothing too fiddly or costly. I've also driven plenty of 300 bhp JRSC honda's none of them have blown up at my far from delicate right foot. Infact, even a 400bhp rotrax SC engine managed to survive 10 laps of abuse. I do know of a couple that have failed, mainly due to poor mapping overheating the pistons and causing failures, but i also saw my fair share of K's in bits when i raced.

You talk about smoothness of the K compared to a honda, and again, i couldnt disagree more. Every K i have ever driven has felt rough and unwilling to rev compared to a honda. I cant explain it as your figures obviously disagree, but put someone in 2 cars back to back and i bet you they will say the honda is smoother and more willing to rev.

..........don't understand that.....................

I have driven 2 hondas, both sooo slow to rev, and you can feel the secondaries........uuuugh.... that's why honda redid the whole design with the K20Z1

[foz01]

That's the old k20 flywheel btw...

[whaleys]

this is now very interesting...

[woody]

Perhaps Honda have to look at a whole different set of requirements for a production engine Vs a hand full of hand built engines? Or indeed a Rover K. Perhaps if Austin Rover had persued a more conservative design they'd have had a more reliable, cheaper to produce, product.

Well I don't like conservative, cheap engines either, on the other hand I love engineering, I love engineering that works, and the lightweight K is manner from heaven, whereas the K20 is crude in many ways, rough, heavy and built in tiny numbers. The K series build was 6 million.

Does it not occur to you that Honda will have built that engine to a set price and have chosen to spend on the head rather and on reliability than the weight of the moving parts?

I'm surprised the rover K build was that high, but comparing a range of 1.1 > 2.5 engines over a vast number of vehicle designs Vs an engine type in two (three if you count the Atom?) cars. Not really relevant. I do agree though, I like to see good, lean and well considered engineering. It's just in a mass market product it's not always relevant, esp. when iVtec is a more marketable USP that lightweight internals.

[KingK_series]

That's the old k20 flywheel btw...

That was a K20A2 crankset, common to ALL A2s I believe

here is a K20JDM that threw a rod in an Elise [see mangled pin] with the lighter flywheel now common on the K20Z1, still no dowel and still 400gmm odd out of balance ie 4x worse than stock Rover at 100gmm.