Independence

[kenny]

Kenny, I get the impression you are not AS biggest supporter .

Believe it or not I used to be a fervent Nationalist and SNP voter.

I don't dislike Salmond but at times he infuriates me. He seems to like making the Scots look insular and narrow minded in order to score some points off the big boys in Westminster, the fuss he made over the televised general election debates being a classic example.

As a politician he is probably one of the more likeable ones but pinning all our hopes on a finite oil supply, a deluded energy policy and some jingoistic battle cries isn't good enough.

[campbell]

Who was the Record guy Campbell? It's not on iPlayer yet.

Torcuil someone. Prog on iPlayer this morning.

[TophaTron]

There have been some good articles/blog posts about this on the Spectator.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/?tag=Scotland

Basically at the moment it looks like Scotland would vote no, but then no-one would have predicted the SNP could win a majority in an Election system rigged against them. Who's to say after 2 further years of tub-thumping they couldn't be convinced?

Scottish politics is populated almost entirely by pygmies, so it's no wonder that a skilled political communicator like Salmond can do so well against such dire opposition.

[PhilA]

i like AS. In fact, I like alot of the SNP. Swinney was a help to me with some council stuff a few years ago.

However - independance - no thanks.

I am British.
Yes, I am Scottish too.
I dont need independance to know of a "country" called Scotland, nor do millions of others around the world.

The Poll Tax "experiment", the oil "taken from us", and then the "braveheart" freedom are big things that make Scots emotional and wanting to thrust their P....ride out.
Pride before a fall.

If Scotland had a large established economy, then maybe we could cope. Remember the electronics "silicon glen"? Pretty sure alot of that ran away when this was talked about before.

AS is passionate about Scotland. Im afraid that passion + pride would likely make us fall.
I wish they would just get on with organising business better.

[Corranga]

The Daily Record guy was actually spot on...8 minutes of expert legal debate was tough enough on the grey matter...imagine 18 months of it while the legal eagles rack up cracking fee notes trying to work out whether Scotland is allowed to act upon a "Yes" vote or not.

You couldn't make it up.

This. Only mention of it in this thread so far I reckon, but something on my mind.

It's sort of like a divorce. In divorce, do both parties take away with them exactly what they put in?
The oil / energy / etc don't belong to Scotland, they belong to Britain.
Even if 100% of the Scottish population votes yes, what about the English / Welsh / N Irish, who also part own all of these things?
I fail to see how a yes vote in a very small percentage of British people can remove so much from Britain.
Plus, we'd have to take good with bad, so any agreement that was made would have to include national debt.

AS is very, very good at knowing what to do to get the vote (hence SNP getting in in the first place).
The SNP did some clever things, and no one really wanted any of the others in, so they were already looking like a good bet.
On top of that, he managed to get the interest of those who probably don't often vote. He pulled the Braveheart card.

They used to say in video games, if you could get women to buy them, you'd do very, very well. AS is the Nintendo of Scottish politics.

I'm concerned mostly about the uneducated Braveheart vote. To me, it seems like a vote for ruining the country, not for being proud of it.

It's kinda like an argument I once had with a vegan (ok, I was winding them up a bit...)
My argument was that vegans wanted to reduce the number of animals in the world, possibly driving things like cows and pigs to extinction.
There wouldn't be fields and fields of them if we didn't eat and wear them..
Oddly, the vegan in question didn't like me pointing out that sentencing most of the cattle in the world to death because they are no longer required, and the land should be used to grow seed rape, or flowers or something didn't go down well

When that day comes around, i'll vote no.

[TophaTron]

A nice(!) stat I read was that the liabilities for RBS on their own are 2,500% of the Scottish national output.

Ouch!

[Mikie711]

It's weird reading through a lot of these posts. Everyone admits they have no idea how this is going to be managed, who gets what and how much, the costs involved, how the pie is going to be divided never mind the legality of it all. Yet the majority, myself included have already made up our minds.
So much for informed decision making

[Lazydonkey]

It's weird reading through a lot of these posts. Everyone admits they have no idea how this is going to be managed, who gets what and how much, the costs involved, how the pie is going to be divided never mind the legality of it all. Yet the majority, myself included have already made up our minds.
So much for informed decision making

Im not sure that's true - i think most people admit they dont know the whole detail but from everything i've read i cannot see how the sums add up. The core arguments "for" tend to be short of facts and long on "freedom" in my experience. We know how much the status quo costs, who has what and how it is managed.

That underpins my decison.

[campbell]

Fair point Mike but it's all about taking risk. Or not taking it.

If you can't weigh up all the facts about something, then human nature generally says "do nothing".

We often hear of the "do nothing option" being derided and made out to be cowardly.

But who would bet their whole way of life - and potentially also their actual livelihood - on a dream peddled by a small group of political idealists?

What is so dreadfully wrong with the Scottish way of life right now? What proof is there that as a fully independent nation, we could do any better? Particularly when you net-off the upheaval of getting to that future utopian state in the first place.

Here's an interesting reflection rooted in the theme of the market economy. Which we, broadly, are in. What do companies do when they wish to prosper. Do they attempt to grow organically, form alliances with others, or even acquire others in order to create scale, diversification, physical presence etc. Or do they subdivide back down into smaller and smaller totally independent units.

My view is they do the former, and for good reason.

[gorrie]

First and foremost I see myself as Scottish. But, I think this mentality has been engrained in me through growing up watching sports where Scotland compete individually (Rugby, Football etc)... and not through some mis-placed pride that our nation offers so much more than anywhere else. In fact, in relation to the 'pride' card... I'm struggling to think of much that our nation has done in my lifetime to be proud about.

In 1997 I voted No/No to the referendum on whether a Scottish Parliment should be set up, and whether it should have powers to vary tax. Still yet to be convinced of the benefit of the outcome.
Independance, I'm even less convinced of. I'd much rather be part of an independant Britain, than an independant Scotland relying on Euro handouts.

FFS, we can't even manage to get a tram installation in the Capital.

[tut]

FFS, we can't even manage to get a tram installation in the Capital.

Nor build a M/W North of Perth, or a dual carriageway to Peterhead, and as for the Aberdeen by-pass we have a Council par with Edinburgh's, bloody pathetic and gutless.

tut

[j2 lot]

... and lets not get into the cost of the current Parliament building which was x10 times over original cost estimates

[Dominic]

I can't believe people are saying they like Alex Salmon. Can't be the same man I have seen on the news and met. I am embarrassed to consider him a fellow country man. He is a stupid, short sighted and bigoted little man. I'm with those who says he makes my blood boil!!!

I am genuinely concerned as to how bad things will get in Scotland if Salmon gets his way.

I think it's fair to say I'll be voting 'NO' to independence!

[Shug]

I can't believe people are saying they like Alex Salmon. Can't be the same man I have seen on the news and met. I am embarrassed to consider him a fellow country man. He is a stupid, short sighted and bigoted little man. I'm with those who says he makes my blood boil!!!

I am genuinely concerned as to how bad things will get in Scotland if Salmon gets his way.

I think it's fair to say I'll be voting 'NO' to independence!

Sorry mate, to say he's stupid is just plain wrong. His views and personal beliefs can be debated till the cows come home, but in the matter of being a canny political operator, I think everyone has to agree he does that very, very well - for good or bad. If you think otherwise, you've not been paying attention to what he's managed to do on a party and personal career front.

Not saying I like him, frankly, I don't. Nor do I like the route he's trying to take the country down. But to say he's stupid is a bit silly.

[campbell]

Vote now.

http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/vie ... 13#p389829

I have also fixed title spellings of Independence on both threads. It has 3 e's and no a's.

cheers

Campbell