Independence

[Noops]

[quote="kenny"]Donkey you were bang on with the date thing earlier, Salmond will unashamedly exploit the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn to push his parochial politics. Frankly it's embarrassing.

Also he is cynically trying to lower the voting age to 16 as he is well aware he will be able to stir the Braveheart 'freeeeddooooom' sentimentality in the youth vote.[/quote

[robin]

P.S. Smaller is not better. Disorganized is bad. Organized and larger is better than organized and smaller - assuming fixed service count and taken to extremes it is obvious to see this - imagine 10 public services applied to a population of 10 people ... we would each have to work for the public sector to administrate one service each and nobody left to work in the private sector to pay for it.

Cheers,
Robin

Smaller is more trackable though, more accountable. Easier to see. I know you miss out on economies of scale (but in many public services they'll have an upper limit) but you'll gain in easier to manage. Probably.
Taken to the other extreme you also get Communist Russia which was not particularly efficient in delivering what people wanted or needed. Huge volumes of what was ordered but not very reactive in changes in the market.

Anyways. Slight thread drift...

I wouldn't say it was a thread drift to discuss the economics of the two options.

Governments always have the opportunity to improve the efficiency of the public sector services but they generally fail to do so.

Clever as AS may be, I haven't heard him suggest that we'll have a more efficient public sector because he's going to do X, Y or Z. It's wishful thinking to assume it'll be any different apart from the fact that it will still be smaller and thus less efficient (more overheads for fewer service instances delivered).

Cheers,
Robin

[Rich H]

I am still to hear a plan for post independance... It might well be poor reporting down here but AS's answer always seems to be 'what the people want'.

Am I right in thinking he is pushing for the extra 'devo max' option not the outright independance Yes/No? If so - why? Does he not want outright 'Freedom' from us hated English??

[robin]

I don't he calls us "hated English"

[tut]

I don't. He calls us "hated English"

I don't think he calls us "hated English"

Which one Robin?

tut

[woody]

I am still to hear a plan for post independance... It might well be poor reporting down here but AS's answer always seems to be 'what the people want'.

Am I right in thinking he is pushing for the extra 'devo max' option not the outright independance Yes/No? If so - why? Does he not want outright 'Freedom' from us hated English??

Devo max is to split the vote shirly?

Support for independence has hovered around 33% +/- a couple in polls for a many years now. Split the 'No' vote into No and Devo max + a few spolied ballots (assuming that yes vote remains roughly constant with some converts and some opting for devo max instead) and the referendum results will be an awful lot closer.

I think if there are 3 options, for the yes to succeed, the Yes vote should be over 50% of those who vote.33% of the, say 70% of the electorate who may bother (I assume people will actually want to vote in this one) is not a large percentage in the context.

[GregR]

I don't. He calls us "hated English"

I don't think he calls us "hated English"

Which one Robin?

tut

Surely you mean:-

Which one, Robin?

[Kelvin]

The whole question seems inherently unfair to me. What we are really talking about is the break up of the United Kingdom not Scottish independence. Therefore, how come a few million people get to decide the fate of the UK and the rest of the country has to lump it? Worse still. If the yes vote succeeds then the fate of the UK will have been decided by probably a million people. Of course you can argue it the other way as England has a far larger voting population and may well boot Scotland out of the UK against the will of the Scottish voters if there was a UK wide vote.

Personally I detest nationalism as it brings out the worst in people and I can see this campaign becoming increasingly parochial and anti English which will drive a wedge between the nations no matter the outcome. Moreover, there is an increasing anti Scottish slant in the English press. They are positioning Scotland as a parasite stuck on the top of England sucking up resources.

What is interesting for me is what will be the fate of Salmond and Cameron after the referendum? Surely it would end either premiership if the vote goes against them.

[robin]

Oops. I meant 'I don't think he call us "hated English."'

Cheers,
Robin

[BiggestNizzy]

If it goes ahead then the rest of the Uk will be worse off It will definently weaken whats left of the Uk not only in Europe but it's world standing.

I would ignore what the papers say as they print what sells papers and if thats anti-scottish then so be it.

[pete]

I wouldn't say it was a thread drift to discuss the economics of the two options.

Governments always have the opportunity to improve the efficiency of the public sector services but they generally fail to do so.

Clever as AS may be, I haven't heard him suggest that we'll have a more efficient public sector because he's going to do X, Y or Z. It's wishful thinking to assume it'll be any different apart from the fact that it will still be smaller and thus less efficient (more overheads for fewer service instances delivered).

Cheers,
Robin

No I haven't heard AS claim anything about public sector, although I haven't really heard him claim very much in detail.

Yes there are benefits of scale but I'm pretty sure there is at least one school of thought that suggests there is sometimes a benefit in keeping things small and decentralised so they remain connected with the people they are supplying service to. (OK so it's a long time since I read it but isn't that what Schumacher wrote about? I'll need to re-read it.)

But it is wishful thinking, I was speculating and trying to imagine ways in which independence might be better. And it was irrelevant because if there is one thing I can be sure of then a newly independent Scotland would waste money on massively over budget public projects at every opportunity They'll be like a teenager in Halfords with a new credit card. (Massive RIMS, Big STEREO, BIGGER SPEAKERS etcetc)*

I am enjoying the debate but I think I am looking too deeply into it. I think AS (have you noticed how it is AS and not the SNP everyone talks about) believes the following (and apologies if this sounds simplistic).
They simply think that Scotland would be better off without England, as England's interests are often put before Scotlands'. That's it. There is no plan, no great economic theory, no idea of what we do about passports or emabassies or driving licences or tax collection or any of the other hundred questions. Because they don't care - this is not a rational argument its an emotional one - they just think we would be better off alone.
So there's no point in trying to find rationalality in the argument, because it's an argument effectively based on faith rather than logic.

Have you got your tattoo yet by the way, nice man from the council came round yesterday and said that as I was English I was to have a tattoo, and I was to get my name put on a register.
I'm sure it's nothing to worry about.


pete

*See, I got in a car reference!

[Kelvin]

It's not obvious to me how an independent Scotland will be a better Scotland. It's a lot more obvious how United Kingdom is better for Scotland. In fact, I can't see how anyone can possibly forecast, with much degree of accuracy, the state of an independent Scottish economy in 30 years time so the whole economic argument is moot in my view. And let us not forget that a yes vote will mean a vote to join the Euro. If the referendum question was phrased as such then I bet fewer Scots would vote yes.

[max1966]

I'm inclined to stay out of this debate as I guess we can't ever trust the information we are provided with as to any financial benefits independence or the status quo bring.

However the risks far outweigh the benefits. I'm Scottish and very proud but our economy is so inextricably linked to the UK that it won't be split without huge ramifications. I work in a sector crippled by the current economic situation, there is little work about due to a complete collapse in investment and risk taking in development. Any independence will further delay any chance of recovery and a lack of clarity is equally damaging. Europe is not going to step in to support another unsustainable economic minnow, who's to say we'd get membership?

Oil revenue, as so often commented, is bolloxed (finite and not really ours), it won't sustain an economy crippled by its share of the UK debt and its fair share of 'non-working' population. There is also the problem of the imbalance between the private (which will shrink) and a public sector which needs trimming to be sustainable. We don't have a broad enough economy with little manufacturing to generate the 'real' money for on-ward investment and tax revenue. Someone has to earn the first 'dollar' for lending and taxation to start the ball rolling.

The green economic miracle is a dream, where are the wind turbines erected in Scotland manufactured? No to nuclear or fossil fuel power stations, get real hurry up and build some new nuclear power stations or we'll need to buy most of our energy from overseas (bit of a drift but all these wood burning stoves, we stopped burning wood for a reason, it doesn't grow quickly enough).

Kelvins comments regarding the break up affecting more than just Scotland is a valid one, to boot I hate chest thumping nationalism, just short of racism, sectarianism and ethnic cleansing (slight exaggeration but you get where I'm coming from).

NO, NO, NO, NO, for me. Mind if there is a yes vote I can leave and be a proud Scottish expat.....the South of France appeals and work is over-rated.

[tut]

Being selfish Kelv I am not looking beyond ten years, but the Euro is a good point.

The French have already ruined our women's tits, so sod letting them ruin our economy as well.

tut

[mac]

I'm starting to really like my job in Preston!