Independence

[BiggestNizzy]

We don't have a broad enough economy with little manufacturing to generate the 'real' money for on-ward investment and tax revenue. Someone has to earn the first 'dollar' for lending and taxation to start the ball rolling.

Manufacturing is doing the best it ahs for years, mainly oil and gas work.

[campbell]

The smart thing to do here would be to lay the economic foundations (eg get wind turbine and solar panel production going successfully within Scottish-based manufacturers, radically improve Public Sector efficiency and effectiveness, etc etc etc), and only THEN seek Indpendence when it was proven that our books would balance.

Striking out for Independence before doing this, hoping it will all happen later, is sheer lunacy.

You wouldn't do it this way at a personal economic level, would you? *


* Well actually a lot of people probably have done, over the last few years, and now the bubble has burst. Q E D. But that's a separate discussion. Sort of.

[Jamied9]

Surely Cameron/Clegg can look at any referendum as win win. If the SNP lose then they've kept the Union together and if Scotland gets independence then a huge number of labour voters will no longer be their problem. Could labour even mount a serious challenge without the Scottish vote, if not then England effectively becomes a 2 party system.

[kenny]

I work in a sector crippled by the current economic situation, there is little work about due to a complete collapse in investment and risk taking in development. Any independence will further delay any chance of recovery and a lack of clarity is equally damaging. Europe is not going to step in to support another unsustainable economic minnow, who's to say we'd get membership?

I work in the same industry and agree, it's bleak. We have dozens of big projects all shelved for the same reason, banks wont lend money and deveolpers wont take the risk. I can't see how an indepedent Scotland is going to make that better.

The green economic miracle is a dream, where are the wind turbines erected in Scotland manufactured? No to nuclear or fossil fuel power stations, get real hurry up and build some new nuclear power stations or we'll need to buy most of our energy from overseas.

Thank f**k for that. I was beginning to look around with a wild bewildered stare wondering why no one else recognised our farcical energy situation.


I am also finding myself in agreement with Pete. We truly live in strange times.

[pete]

The smart thing to do here would be to lay the economic foundations (eg get wind turbine and solar panel production going successfully within Scottish-based manufacturers, radically improve Public Sector efficiency and effectiveness, etc etc etc), and only THEN seek Indpendence when it was proven that our books would balance.

Striking out for Independence before doing this, hoping it will all happen later, is sheer lunacy.

You wouldn't do it this way at a personal economic level, would you? *


* Well actually a lot of people probably have done, over the last few years, and now the bubble has burst. Q E D. But that's a separate discussion. Sort of.

If all these things existed there would be no movement for independence would there?
There is a movement because people think the country would be better for it, if the Utopia you described existed no-one would care one way or the other who was in charge.

[ryallm]

Interesting how the independence debate gets so polarised. People seem to think it is ether a great idea or would be a complete disaster. A wise man once said that the world is not black and white, but infinite shades of grey....

Anyway, on a lighter note, my all time favourite take on the Scotland/England relationship http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgkZDbe4Xk

Mark

[campbell]

I guess so, Pete.

Are there any historical precedents we could look at to see how it can be done? Pref one good example and one bad...as a minimum

[Dominic]

An interesting read on the subject; http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/c ... 2012014584

[campbell]

Interesting how the independence debate gets so polarised.

By definition, if you ask a closed question, you limit the answer set to the polarised opposites of {yes, no}

[campbell]

An interesting read on the subject; http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/c ... 2012014584

The User Generated Content debate which follows that is nearly as well behaved as ours right here - bravo!

I still stand by the principle that Scotland must prove its ability to stand on its own two feet before it seeks to disconnect from the mother ship.

Right now all it has proved is the charisma of a clever mouthpiece in the shape of Alex Salmond.

[ryallm]

Interesting how the independence debate gets so polarised.

By definition, if you ask a closed question, you limit the answer set to the polarised opposites of {yes, no}

In a referendum question, yes, but I think the debate for and against generally is often rather unsohisticated. Independence for Scotland would have some positives, but also some negatives. It is a balance and the arguments are not clear cut on either side. A lot of the economic issues in particular are quite technical and can be skewed either way depending on interpretation of statistics. I find the level of the debate in the media on both sides to be pretty dismal.

[campbell]

Have you watched any of the Newsnight coverage yet, Mark? Particularly Newsnight Scotland from 11pm. I think they do try to be even-handed, editorially, on that programme. The only disappointment is that it's too short - 20-odd mins I think.

I agree it's a mire of (mis)information but what are we to do.

[BiggestNizzy]

When I started reading this thread I was against it. But Now I think it might be a bit of a laugh.

[pete]

I guess so, Pete.

Are there any historical precedents we could look at to see how it can be done? Pref one good example and one bad...as a minimum

Yugoslavia. Covers best and worst case scenarios and all shades in between.

[pete]

I still stand by the principle that Scotland must prove its ability to stand on its own two feet before it seeks to disconnect from the mother ship.

Right now all it has proved is the charisma of a clever mouthpiece in the shape of Alex Salmond.

I agree with the second part.

Not sure what you mean by the first part - everyone runs a deficit.