Why don't I like Honda K20's

[Shug]

I'm getting in early here - remember to keep it civil everyone.

The minute it's not, it's locked and you can go find somewhere else to throw stones at each other...

[KingK_series]

The rover box in my S1 Exige was like stirring soup in comparison even with new cables and linkage.

Off topic, but I can't beleive how much better the shift, albeit sitting static, feels in the MG TF (they changed it for the TF apparently) compared to an elise. Always thought an elise was ok, but the MG is very good. Looks like it uses a completely different set-up though.

This IS off topic but briefly, the PG1 Lotus install was a costed down version of the MGF setup - thank Lotus for that, howevere the difference between a poor shift and a decent one is setting up the cables correctly, there is adjustment in two planes at the box, get this right and the shift is very good if not sweet, get it wrong and it's awful, but not center-less like a Honda. My boxes have a lot of work done internally which does make them sweet -

[Scuffers]

but not center-less like a Honda.

Watch on YouTube

MMMM, look, a centre-less standard Honda box......

My boxes have a lot of work done internally which does make them sweet -

are we back to mythical vapour-ware again?

and answer the question, is it Andrew Howell's MG?

[KingK_series]

I can remember saying to JJ when he got his Honda Elise, the conversion is worth it for the gearchange alone...
The rover box in my S1 Exige was like stirring soup in comparison even with new cables and linkage.

To be honest I'm losing interest in this thread the more it becomes lop sided

ok 2 things

firstly this is the first time a reasoned techncal analysis of the Honda K20A2 has been posted on any forum, to expose it's weaknesses, as any OEM will have, and particularly the weaknesses in terms of replacing K in an Elise, simply people have not been honest or open on other forums, with many issues but particularly the weight difference.

secondly there is a thread on here about K which has illustrated many issues, but has also been totally open and forthright [ie not just blaming the gasket, which is a total red herring] about THE K series problem - so called "HGF"

- that cannot be lop sided -

[KingK_series]

but not center-less like a Honda.

Watch on YouTube

MMMM, look, a centre-less standard Honda box......

My boxes have a lot of work done internally which does make them sweet -

are we back to mythical vapour-ware again?

No I blueprint my Honda designed PG1 gearboxes..............I see even you REM finish your Eliseparts seq box


however it it a very very minor issue -

you have two very clear questions to answer in response to your post before last -

on the important issue of engine weight?

are you going to dodge them again?

[KingK_series]

I'm getting in early here - remember to keep it civil everyone.

The minute it's not, it's locked and you can go find somewhere else to throw stones at each other...

- all perfectly civil so far - so lets hope it remains so, you will not find me throwing any personal abuse at scuffers.......

however this has been a useful thread according to many, and the denouement will come when the weight differential between a Honda engine + box etc vs a K is clearly established, because it has been the subject of much denial/obfuscation for far too long, and clearly Scuffers knows it is his big weakness, so lets see if we can get the truth out.

[Scuffers]

you have two very clear questions to answer in response to your post before last -

on the important issue of engine weight?

LOL! that's one question, and no, I have never dodged it, its been posted up well over 100 times before by now, you just seem to either be blind to it or just can't accept the answer.

the 15Kg's you keep banging on about was never quoted as being the difference between the (bare) engines, it was always the difference between the (converted) car before and after install, *Many* people have done this exercise (ie. before and after weights), all have come back with ~15Kg's being the difference.

[Shug]

you have two very clear questions to answer in response to your post before last -

on the important issue of engine weight?

LOL! that's one question, and no, I have never dodged it, its been posted up well over 100 times before by now, you just seem to either be blind to it or just can't accept the answer.

the 15Kg's you keep banging on about was never quoted as being the difference between the (bare) engines, it was always the difference between the (converted) car before and after install, *Many* people have done this exercise (ie. before and after weights), all have come back with ~15Kg's being the difference.

For those who don't have a SELOC login, these figures were linked in a post there, as written by Scuffers:

Honda engine complete but minus gearbox is ~120Kg's, Gearbox is ~41Kg's.

[Scotty C]

15 or 50 kg

I converted my 340r in to a Honda'd 34rR

190bhp K V 242BHP n/a honda, I know what i would have every day of the week and i know what was faster

[KingK_series]

15 or 50 kg

I converted my 340r in to a Honda'd 34rR

190bhp K V 242BHP n/a honda, I know what i would have every day of the week and i know what was faster

if you ran a as built VERYHIGHPERFORMANCEDISASTER engine, that is hardly surprising, but who would want to run an aftermarket engine that met NONE of the OEM Rover tolerances? and was not fit for purpose.

[KingK_series]

you have two very clear questions to answer in response to your post before last -

on the important issue of engine weight?

LOL! that's one question, and no, I have never dodged it, its been posted up well over 100 times before by now, you just seem to either be blind to it or just can't accept the answer.

the 15Kg's you keep banging on about was never quoted as being the difference between the (bare) engines, it was always the difference between the (converted) car before and after install, *Many* people have done this exercise (ie. before and after weights), all have come back with ~15Kg's being the difference.

really? - and how about the post and pic you posted on seloc of one of your Hondas [judiciously cropped] on your bathroom scales at 115kg?

- however as you know, it's a bit more than 120kg - isn't it Scuffers, and an equivalent K is 84.5kg, which is more than 15kg difference in any car...... not including box etc etc etc.

[KingK_series]

you have two very clear questions to answer in response to your post before last -

on the important issue of engine weight?

LOL! that's one question,

Here were the TWO questions -

"
I see you see the coup de grace coming for your honda K20a2.......!

so I take it by publishing that pic against the corner wts of my S1 with no car weight reduction at all, that you are no longer claiming the Honda engine is a mere 15kg heavier than a K?


or that your repeated claims on seloc that a K20 weighs 115kg, is in fact the truth?"

[mckeann]

i only had 223bhp out of my honda'd S1 (not a scuffers kit by the way Mr Erland, so i'm not a fan boy - although i do like the man) and i never had a K series come past me in a straight line. The sad fact is that i CANNOT go and buy a k series that will beat a honda. Its not for sale, and if it is even real, its made of parts that i cannot buy. Its a waste of time having this conversation until you offer something real that people can buy.

And as for honda's being rough, slow to rev and unreliable, thats utter nonesense, and is how i would describe my old K, not my old K20. Please stop posting the same old speel time and time again and go build an engine, fit it to a car, and let people decide for themselves.

[Scuffers]

really? - and how about the post and pic you posted on seloc of one of your Hondas [judiciously cropped] on your bathroom scales at 115kg?

you do make me laugh...

this is said picture (totally un-cropped and un-edited):

[KingK_series]

i only had 223bhp out of my honda'd S1 (not a scuffers kit by the way Mr Erland, so i'm not a fan boy - although i do like the man) and i never had a K series come past me in a straight line. The sad fact is that i CANNOT go and buy a k series that will beat a honda. Its not for sale, and if it is even real, its made of parts that i cannot buy. Its a waste of time having this conversation until you offer something real that people can buy.

And as for honda's being rough, slow to rev and unreliable, thats utter nonesense, and is how i would describe my old K, not my old K20. Please stop posting the same old speel time and time again and go build an engine, fit it to a car, and let people decide for themselves.

I have Neil, and when I am ready I'll let you know all the results, however the teaser of the touring car engine, with less valve, cam and TB than your old stock K20 but 50 odd bhp more in a reliable engine that was tested hard by a professional driver as opposed to a weekend wannabe, and weighing a mere 78kg as opposed to your base Honda 127kg engine only shows you it can be done - as for the analysis of the honda - if you want to dispute how badly balanced the stock Honda crank is, how it has no flywheel dowel etc etc etc - I will meet you at Vibration Free and pay for you to see 5 honda cranksets to be run up to compare to stock Rover, I'll also bring up the bent and broken rods and pistons so you can see for yourself.

as for the rest,[ ie manufacturing, distribution etc] hang on to your "hat" - I havn't sorted it yet but the more posts like this I get, the more I feel I will just to end this issue, however now May I remind you, this is a technical thread about an engine and not about anything else, and certainly not with what I do with my work.