Why don't I like Honda K20's

[Stevoraith]

Vey good post Campbell.

Doesn't really answer the weight qustion though, that looks like you've just assumed weights.

King-K keeps saynig that a K20s is X amount heavier than a K-series but there is no proof (that I have seen).

We've had Tut's Honda on the corner weights, getting a standard K on the scales is what we need so that we can see how much heavier a Honda is.

The power-to-weight debate can then be had once we know 'facts'.

[Shug]

Dom's standard S1 135 was weighed on corner-scales at meet-up last year. If Dom or Craig is still reading this, perhaps they can find the figures. They were posted on here, but I don't have time for a trawl myself.

From memory 750kg was pretty spot on. Plus, different S1s with the same spec weighed different amounts due to the hand-laid nature of the clams - not tens of kilos, I'd admit. There was also a rolling programme of upgrades that gradually snuck kerb weight up seemingly on a weekly basis at first - so you can't be totally exhaustive about this.

[GP1]

Don't want to get all moderator on this, but similarly don't want to see this descending into angry retorts. Sorry guys, but can we steer clear of ridicule, especially when it's a technical thread with some content.

Sorry, quite childish of me.

[campbell]

Doesn't really answer the weight qustion though, that looks like you've just assumed weights.

Not quite. I'm extremely confident in the 750kg starting point for a late-vintage std S1. Tut will be along in a minute with his all-in figure and I'm sure Dom won't be far away either! He has a good example of the lightly-breathed on variety.

And I have used the figures banded around for K20 increments to arrive at an assumed 800kg Elise or wisful 765kg version!!

[Stevoraith]

There was also a rolling programme of upgrades that gradually snuck kerb weight up seemingly on a weekly basis at first - so you can't be totally exhaustive about this.

So what you ideally need are before- and after-Honda-conversion figures on the same car I supopse.

But KingK has stated that a Honda conversion weighs 50kg+ more than a standard K, which is a very large differnce, so I guess two cars of roughly the same age, one with Honda, one with K could give a good approximation of whether this could be close to the truth or not.

Whatever way you look at it, weights of a block stripped of ancillaries, or a gearbox on it's own aren't really relevant- you need to take all the components of an engine conversion as a whole.

[Stevoraith]

Just found Tut's other post stating that his car was 765kg with a full tank of fuel. And how much could you shave off that if you didn't have a S/C?

I'd very much doubt that there are any standard K-engined cars out there that weigh 715kg wet, no matter how early they are.

Scuffers statement that a Honda conversion seems to add ~15kg seems closer to the mark at the moment......

[Shug]

Don't really want to be dragging this out, but there's a lot of weight come out of Tut's car and it's an early chassis. Plus big chunks of the bloody thing are missing 720kg isn't actually unbelievable for an early car with lighter aftermarket exhaust and some stuff out (rear window, roof, etc) Then you're talking stuff that goes along with engine - so the mounts can't help but be lighter than the K series pig-iron fluid mount, ancilliaries might have some weight lobbed off, Exahust run is shorter, so it's really not as simple a calculation as X = Early S1, Y = Early S1 with Honda, so engine weight equals Y-X.

I have no beef either way. I loved my K, I totally got why people put hondas in em and might have done the same if budgets allowed.

[Dominic]

My car weighed in at 749KG, with all fluids (inc fuel) topped up.

That was without the rear windscreen and roof off, but did have; harness bar & harnesses in place (along with standard seatbelts). There was also a fire extinguisher and all the carpet mats in place. Other non standard parts; ally belled discs, sports cat, induction kit, suspension, cd player, a bottle of water (500ml if it matters) and an atlas,.. but I doubt any of that would make a significant difference. So I would say circa 750kg is about right.

[Shug]

And yours is a 99 car, so pretty late?

[campbell]

Shug kinda beat me to it.

Tut's cars were both early examples and weights were conceivably 720kg or thereabouts when running with original K series engines. But we don't have accurate before figures as the mellow yellow was converted when he bought it. I doubt the blue lagoon (RIP) was weighed prior to its first QED conversion to 200bhp K or to the next incarnation with 220 bhp K20.

This from elises.co.uk (which no doubt will be derided but it's a start):

Early Elises weighed in around 725kg and various modifications have meant that the standard car now weighs 755kg and the 111S weighs in at 770kg. The Elise Sport 190 is 670kg.

Incidentally, nice effort with the Sport 190. Ah but feck me, it's got a 190bhp K series in it

[Dominic]

And yours is a 99 car, so pretty late?

Yup, Sport 135'99 ....which has the slightly wider 6 spoke wheels too.

[Stevoraith]

Don't really want to be dragging this out, but there's a lot of weight come out of Tut's car and it's an early chassis. Plus big chunks of the bloody thing are missing 720kg isn't actually unbelievable for an early car ........

it's really not as simple a calculation as X = Early S1, Y = Early S1 with Honda, so engine weight equals Y-X.

Shows that I don't really know what I'm talking about then
And we do need the same car to be weighed pre- and post-conversion to get an accurate figure (which will probably vary conversion to conversion).

[Shug]

And we do need the same car to be weighed pre- and post-conversion to get an accurate figure (which will probably vary conversion to conversion).

Exactamundo There's the rub. I've not seen anyone publish that - complicated by the fact that when you swap the engine, other stuff is usually done - backbox, brakes, etc, etc...

If there's figs out there that show this sort of transparency, someone please post them up - I don't pretend to read everything posted about conversions, so I'm likely to have missed them and it really interests me (purely academically, I'd add)

[campbell]

Geek.

[Gourlay83]

Corner weighted my car yesterday. If you allow me to deduct the screen and doors (camping spec) a whopping 495kg.

Do I win ?

Alan