Why don't I like Honda K20's

[campbell]

-Honestly and for less money than the Scuffers SCCC install, mine all steel, dry sumped and blueprinted to boot!

No touting and commercial spats on here please.

[KingK_series]

-Honestly and for less money than the Scuffers SCCC install, mine all steel, dry sumped and blueprinted to boot!

No touting and commercial spats on here please.

No touting intended, just pointiing out the huuuuuuuuuuge cost of Scuffers's scrapper engine install with all cast iron bits [according to the man himself]!

[campbell]

Scuffers's scrapper engine install

Stop the baiting as well please.

Otherwise the two of you will have to go and find a different playground to scuffle in. From what I understand there may not be many left, so why not just moderate your own posts a little?

Or take your arguments offline?

Or meet up, have a real scrap, and get it out of your systems?

I can't speak for the other mods but I'm getting a bit bored of stepping in here. I don't think many (if any) other threads have ever rivalled these K vs K20 threads for moderation effort and frequency. It could be worth reflecting on that.

Campbell

[KingK_series]

Scuffers's scrapper engine install

Stop the baiting as well please.

Otherwise the two of you will have to go and find a different playground to scuffle in. From what I understand there may not be many left, so why not just moderate your own posts a little?

Or take your arguments offline?

Or meet up, have a real scrap, and get it out of your systems?

I can't speak for the other mods but I'm getting a bit bored of stepping in here. I don't think many (if any) other threads have ever rivalled these K vs K20 threads for moderation effort and frequency. It could be worth reflecting on that.

Campbell

most people seem to be really enjoying this thread, and for the first time there has been no personal abuse thrown at anyone - wow , result

plus I hope the replys I posted on page 18 raised important issues -

[Stevoraith]

-Honestly and for less money than the Scuffers SCCC install, mine all steel, dry sumped and blueprinted to boot!

I may have missed this in the previous 30-odd pages but can I ask what power one of your dry-sumped, blue-printed engines delivers?

What internals do you replace and what is a ball-park cost (imagine you take a standard K, in an Elise, and rework it to your specs)?

[KingK_series]

-Honestly and for less money than the Scuffers SCCC install, mine all steel, dry sumped and blueprinted to boot!

I may have missed this in the previous 30-odd pages but can I ask what power one of your dry-sumped, blue-printed engines delivers?

What internals do you replace and what is a ball-park cost (imagine you take a standard K, in an Elise, and rework it to your specs)?

With all due respect this is a technical thread about the Honda K20, it is not about any other engine, that is for another thread.

Right now I am trying to start a dicussion about the Honda it's design, and shortcomings as I see them.

The thread about the K is about how the Honda conversion business came about and particularly how scuffers might have come to take the path he has

It is for another thread to illustrate competent K builds and what the Honda needs to compete with if people continue to choose to take that route in competition etc.

[GP1]

Would a highly modified K20 be superior to a highly modified K series? ie, same sort of expenditure and level of modification.

I think most people would agree that the K20 is the better overall engine when both are in standard form. I could be mistaken, but it appears we have previously been comparing a modified K series with a standard K20.

Put another way, could the shortcomings alluded to above be improved/ replaced for less outlay than extensively modifying a K series?

Also, would heavily a K series and fitting a lot of rare or even bespoke items not raise issues with maintenance and/ or track side emergency repairs. Whereas a largely standard, but perhaps lightly improved K20 might be easier to keep in good fettle due availability of parts and the speed at which they can be sourced and delivered.

[KingK_series]

Would a highly modified K20 be superior to a highly modified K series? ie, same sort of expenditure and level of modification.

I think most people would agree that the K20 is the better overall engine when both are in standard form. I could be mistaken, but it appears we have previously been comparing a modified K series with a standard K20.

Put another way, could the shortcomings alluded to above be improved/ replaced for less outlay than extensively modifying a K series?

Also, would heavily a K series and fitting a lot of rare or even bespoke items not raise issues with maintenance and/ or track side emergency repairs. Whereas a largely standard, but perhaps lightly improved K20 might be easier to keep in good fettle due availability of parts and the speed at which they can be sourced and delivered.

Great!

that is EXACTLY what this thread is about, -

Well I have tried to show in this thread that the K20 has like all engines, it's own shortcomings, K may have a issue with so called "HGF" and in stock form has small valves because it was intended to produce high airspeeds at very small throttle openings for sghopping trolly engines, but those issues are easily resolved.

K20 has a bad crank, weak rds, cannot be balanced in OEM rim, but above all else weighs 40-50kg more than aK.

EVEN THE £35,000+VAT Neil Brown BTCC engine with ultra light crank and flywheel,carbon clutch and carbon plenum etc etc weighed 115kg, and you just ain't ever gonna get away from the fact that with the honda, you are effectively carting your girlfriend weight in addition around just in front of the rear wheels, and a properly built K will always have that beat!

[tut]

Regardless of anything to do with the merits and engineering of either, to get a standard K to the 220hp of an Elise Honda requires a lot of work and expense.

I took mine up to 190hp and that cost quite a few pennies. Of course you have to install the K20, but I presume you are just talking about the engines themselves.

tut

[Lazydonkey]

-Honestly and for less money than the Scuffers SCCC install, mine all steel, dry sumped and blueprinted to boot!

I may have missed this in the previous 30-odd pages but can I ask what power one of your dry-sumped, blue-printed engines delivers?

What internals do you replace and what is a ball-park cost (imagine you take a standard K, in an Elise, and rework it to your specs)?

With all due respect this is a technical thread about the Honda K20, it is not about any other engine, that is for another thread.

You can't oppose without first proposing, that's what my gran used to say. So if you're discussing the perceived / actual shortcomings of the K20 then you need to come armed with why the K is better. Like it or not you then NEED to talk cost and BHP of the alternative.

Otherwise it's pointless hot air IMHO

[KingK_series]

Regardless of anything to do with the merits and engineering of either, to get a standard K to the 220hp of an Elise Honda requires a lot of work and expense.

I took mine up to 190hp and that cost quite a few pennies. Of course you have to install the K20, but I presume you are just talking about the engines themselves.

tut

the £35,000+vat for the honda K20 from Neil Brown, is for the base engine, without exhaust, ecu, clutch or throttle body

the £25,542 for Scuffers' sc engine is for a turnkey cast iron crank/rods cast piston etc scrapper engine

my engines are not designed to save money at any cost, they are designed to be reliable and go better than anything you have experienced in a Lotus before, however My turbo blueprinted, dry sumped engines with proper race clutches are no where near the cost of either of the above, and the majority of the cost of them is the blueprinting.

I'd add further that hither to most expensive "220bhp" Ks cost what they did for no good reason that I can see - they used cheap parts, were not blueprinted and were not engineered to last.


One final point is - 220bhp out of a K is a very poor result on throttle bodies, my BTCC engine with less cam, wet sump and on a plenum, proves that a good result can be achieved with a plenum and single TB. The OEM Rover plenum is not a good design, and we will see where Stu's comes out, but with a proper plenum, a carefully designed cam profile and exhaust, I'd expect 240/250 bhp and 165/170lbft to be possible from a 1.8L K on a wet sump, plenum and single TB weighing 78kg, compared to a Honda K20 at 122.5kg, - and have the beating of both a na K20 and the old '220bhop' K.

[KingK_series]

You can't oppose without first proposing, that's what my gran used to say. So if you're discussing the perceived / actual shortcomings of the K20 then you need to come armed with why the K is better. Like it or not you then NEED to talk cost and BHP of the alternative.

Otherwise it's pointless hot air IMHO

IT'S COMING ON ANOTHER THREAD

this is about the honda K20

[mckeann]

Its been coming for the best part of a decade. I'm fed up holding my breathe

[KingK_series]

Its been coming for the best part of a decade. I'm fed up holding my breathe

don't then, go ride your bike, Stu tells me you don't have a Lotus any more? is that true?

and FYI I started work to try and address these engines in mid 2005, which is not 10 years ago.

I have also lost my entire[!} close family between 2009 and 2011, which would throw most people - not that I am looking for sympathy on here, plus

- it has been a lot of work and I have long ago learn't not to put stuff out piecemeal on these forums,,,,,,,and you Neil know what I am talking about there.

[mckeann]

Its been coming for the best part of a decade. I'm fed up holding my breathe

don't then, go ride your bike, Stu tells me you don't have a Lotus any more? is that true?

and FYI I started work to try and address these engines in mid 2005, which is not 10 years ago.

I have also lost my entire[!} close family between 2009 and 2011, which would throw most people - not that I am looking for sympathy on here, plus

- it has been a lot of work and I have long ago learn't not to put stuff out piecemeal on these forums,,,,,,,and you Neil know what I am talking about there.

Stu is quite correct. I'd like to say i got bored waiting for a decade, but your right, its only been 7 years i DID get bored of the K series in my S2, compared to the honda in my S1, so decided on a new challenge, bikes. I do see myself back in an elise one day though, and i do still get to drive them due to nice friends on here, plus i do have experience of most of the engine options for an elise, so i'd say my opinion is still worth something. I rode a honda once, they make great motorcycle engines too

I'm sorry to hear about your family, i geniunely am. As for piecemeal, isnt that exactly what your doing, just drip feeding information, not giving us the final product