Why don't I like Honda K20's

[Stevoraith]

With all due respect this is a technical thread about the Honda K20, it is not about any other engine, that is for another thread.

You’ve got a bit of a cheek there- on your thread about the K-series all you bleat on about is the K20 and why the K is better than the K20. And just on the last page you've been comparing the price of scuffers install to your K-series install!
You can’t have it both ways.

I think most people would agree that the K20 is the better overall engine when both are in standard form. I could be mistaken, but it appears we have previously been comparing a modified K series with a standard K20.

This was my point. And I don’t think King-K does concede that a standard K20 is better than a standard K-series.

What I was doing by asking that leading question was trying to establish if you were comparing apples with apples as it seems to me that you were comparing the price of a very high power Honda with the price of your engine with significantly less power.

Your point seems to be that because the Honda uses heavier components which maybe aren’t as elegant a design as they could be it makes it a worse engine than the K-series.

Surely if an engine can produce more power AND far superior reliability than another engine then it is, in every way which actually matters, superior?

Your argument seems to be that your 200bhp K-series is reliable and has some lovely machined parts etc etc blah blah and it is therefore better than a 200bhp bog standard Honda out of a scrapper because the crank design is poor or whatever.
I’d say that the engine that can achieve the power and reliability without having to resort to replacing most of the internals with bespoke items is the better engine……….

I’m sorry if I’ve read it wrong and if I’ve dragged it off topic slightly but you don’t seem to be able to make your comparisons or reasons for your arguments very clear.

[KingK_series]

With all due respect this is a technical thread about the Honda K20, it is not about any other engine, that is for another thread.

You’ve got a bit of a cheek there- on your thread about the K-series all you bleat on about is the K20 and why the K is better than the K20. And just on the last page you've been comparing the price of scuffers install to your K-series install!
You can’t have it both ways.

I think most people would agree that the K20 is the better overall engine when both are in standard form. I could be mistaken, but it appears we have previously been comparing a modified K series with a standard K20.

This was my point. And I don’t think King-K does concede that a standard K20 is better than a standard K-series.

What I was doing by asking that leading question was trying to establish if you were comparing apples with apples as it seems to me that you were comparing the price of a very high power Honda with the price of your engine with significantly less power.

Your point seems to be that because the Honda uses heavier components which maybe aren’t as elegant a design as they could be it makes it a worse engine than the K-series.

Surely if an engine can produce more power AND far superior reliability than another engine then it is, in every way which actually matters, superior?

Your argument seems to be that your 200bhp K-series is reliable and has some lovely machined parts etc etc blah blah and it is therefore better than a 200bhp bog standard Honda out of a scrapper because the crank design is poor or whatever.
I’d say that the engine that can achieve the power and reliability without having to resort to replacing most of the internals with bespoke items is the better engine……….

I’m sorry if I’ve read it wrong and if I’ve dragged it off topic slightly but you don’t seem to be able to make your comparisons or reasons for your arguments very clear.

Nope you have read it completely wrong.

As far as KingK engines are concerned I don't know how you'd build a 200bhp engine

the 1.8Ls start at 270+bhp

the turbo engines are all 400bhp plus

and no engine weighs more than 78kg

my point in the above threads is that a stock honda engine from scuffers is very very expensive -

[j2 lot]

Is it just me that thinks this thread doesn't fit on SE and is only here because nowhere else will host it anymore.

[KingK_series]

Is it just me that thinks this thread doesn't fit on SE and is only here because nowhere else will host it anymore.

you don't have to read it...

you could go do anything at all.... else......

[Scuffers]

no scuffers you are the joke


even the BTCC engine on a plenum and single TB with max 12 mm lift beat 270 bhp





aaaaaaaaand that was was way back from 2006.............

waky waky.....

and that was a 1.8 was it? No, did not think so.....

and, as usual, anybody can come up with a random dyno plot.... where is that engine and where are it's results? what did it win?

[KingK_series]

weighed 115kg, and you just ain't ever gonna get away from the fact that with the honda, you are effectively carting your girlfriend weight in addition around

What size is your bird
My girlfriend weighs 60kg. Add in 30kg for my engine. Total 90kg
That makes me 25kg lighter than you and my car isn't all lopsided

the difference between a na K20 box starter and alternator, [no exhaust] and the same stock Rover K is 40-50kg, for sc K20 add another 15kg

the difference between a NA K20 and one of mine is about 60kg.

[robin]

It is not clear to me why you all care.

Let Simon E post his views on how engines work. Let Simon S post his. You don't have to agree. We know you don't.

I will delete any post that contains anything other than technical OPINION. Even if your post contatins OPINION plus bickering I'll still delete it.

I started with the previous 5 or so posts.

I haven't been through them all, so no doubt there are others that fall outside of content that's relevant for technical.

Cheers,
Robin

[s29ttc]

I am not getting this thread at all, I am not technical but common sense says this doesn't tie up.

I am reading that this one guy has been working n a k series engine for circa 10 years and managed to develop the best and most reliable engine. The Honda engine which I can only assume has had hundreds of the best engineers working to develop it and a huge development fund have got it totally wrong with their design despite the engine been fitted in many cars with great results and many happy owners.

This guy has made the claims despite never actually have concrete information to back this all up.

It feels like a wasted rant. The way this man is portraying the claims with snide digs is getting people's back up and they would rather see this engines working in a car with data to back up the claims rather than the long drawn out moans and remarks.

My view, stop the moans and arguments, put the effort into the engine, fit it in a car, get it working, show the data and let people see it work, then there would be more constructive discussion based on facts rather than the constant digs at people's ability, ideas, designs when you can't prove that the other is better.

[KingK_series]

I am not getting this thread at all, I am not technical but common sense says this doesn't tie up.

I am reading that this one guy has been working n a k series engine for circa 10 years and managed to develop the best and most reliable engine. The Honda engine which I can only assume has had hundreds of the best engineers working to develop it and a huge development fund have got it totally wrong with their design despite the engine been fitted in many cars with great results and many happy owners.

This guy has made the claims despite never actually have concrete information to back this all up.

It feels like a wasted rant. The way this man is portraying the claims with snide digs is getting people's back up and they would rather see this engines working in a car with data to back up the claims rather than the long drawn out moans and remarks.

My view, stop the moans and arguments, put the effort into the engine, fit it in a car, get it working, show the data and let people see it work, then there would be more constructive discussion based on facts rather than the constant digs at people's ability, ideas, designs when you can't prove that the other is better.

Well then with all due respect maybe you should take a rest from it, this is a technical thread, it is not about comparisons with the Rover K series, it is not a rant, it is my view on some technical aspects of the design of the Honda K 20A2 and why I personally don't like the engine, now if anyone wants to take issue with my technical points, I'd love to have a discussion, for instance if someone wants to argue that the oil breakouts in the Hondas cranks are in the optimal position, or refute my view that the crank is undercounterweighted or that pistons weighing 437gmm is a good thing, I will enjoy a lively discussion. That is what this thread is for.


I have shown you one of my early 2L engines, which was driven by Pro drivers not weekend waanabees,
here is a pic to remind you


but this thread is not about my engines, nor comparisons between K and K20, except on the strict basis of weight, the subject of which I believe has been widely misrepresented. I will start a new thread in due course to present my engines, when I have finished what I a doing, which will also be a technical thread - ie not a thread including K20, then perhaps we can have a further thread to compare them in cars on track with some independent tests and the views of some professional drivers.

Until then technical discussion of the design of the K20A2 and it;s impact on the Elise is very welcome, - I mean that I really would love anyone to challenge me on my technical views about this engine if they feel able, and to develop a thoroughly lively and informed debate about the K20a2's merits or otherwise.

[Dominic]

I am not getting this thread at all, I am not technical but common sense says this doesn't tie up.

I am reading that this one guy has been working n a k series engine for circa 10 years and managed to develop the best and most reliable engine. The Honda engine which I can only assume has had hundreds of the best engineers working to develop it and a huge development fund have got it totally wrong with their design despite the engine been fitted in many cars with great results and many happy owners.

This guy has made the claims despite never actually have concrete information to back this all up.

It feels like a wasted rant. The way this man is portraying the claims with snide digs is getting people's back up and they would rather see this engines working in a car with data to back up the claims rather than the long drawn out moans and remarks.

My view, stop the moans and arguments, put the effort into the engine, fit it in a car, get it working, show the data and let people see it work, then there would be more constructive discussion based on facts rather than the constant digs at people's ability, ideas, designs when you can't prove that the other is better.

Could not have put it better myself!

[woody]

Until then technical discussion of the design of the K20A2 and it;s impact on the Elise is very welcome, - I mean that I really would love anyone to challenge me on my technical views about this engine if they feel able, and to develop a thoroughly lively and informed debate about the K20a2's merits or otherwise.

Sadly perhaps, no-one on here (discounting Scuffers) has taken the time to deconstruct it from an engineering point of view, I think you are probably aware of this and aware you are unlikely to see a fact based reproach to your findings on the engine.

[KingK_series]

I am not getting this thread at all, I am not technical but common sense says this doesn't tie up.

I am reading that this one guy has been working n a k series engine for circa 10 years and managed to develop the best and most reliable engine. The Honda engine which I can only assume has had hundreds of the best engineers working to develop it and a huge development fund have got it totally wrong with their design despite the engine been fitted in many cars with great results and many happy owners.

This guy has made the claims despite never actually have concrete information to back this all up.

It feels like a wasted rant. The way this man is portraying the claims with snide digs is getting people's back up and they would rather see this engines working in a car with data to back up the claims rather than the long drawn out moans and remarks.

My view, stop the moans and arguments, put the effort into the engine, fit it in a car, get it working, show the data and let people see it work, then there would be more constructive discussion based on facts rather than the constant digs at people's ability, ideas, designs when you can't prove that the other is better.

Could not have put it better myself!

then just don't read it - you have the ability to do that...and maybe wait for the new threads if you want ... it is within your power.

[KingK_series]

Until then technical discussion of the design of the K20A2 and it;s impact on the Elise is very welcome, - I mean that I really would love anyone to challenge me on my technical views about this engine if they feel able, and to develop a thoroughly lively and informed debate about the K20a2's merits or otherwise.

Sadly perhaps, no-one on here (discounting Scuffers) has taken the time to deconstruct it from an engineering point of view, I think you are probably aware of this and aware you are unlikely to see a fact based reproach to your findings on the engine.

I don't think scuffers has 'deconstructed' a K20? - I seem to remember him admonishing me on seloc years ago by way of saying that he was not an engine builder, I belive he uses Ian at Clockwisemotion to build his K20's though I know Maidstone frequently strip them to rebuild with steel rods and forged pistons these days, and he used QED to build his Ks.


From MCS WEBSITE
"{Built Honda K20A2 engines

Option1) Normally aspirated with cosworth rods and HC pistons. ADL bearings, phosphor bronze valve guides. New timming chains, oil pumps etc"}
http://www.hondaelise.com/conversion-pa ... xtras.html


On the other hand I have deconstructed the K20 on this thread with copious illustrations FOR YOU so all you need to do is express a technical opinion on the photos or my points - and I'd enjoy the debate, so please do.

[woody]

Until then technical discussion of the design of the K20A2 and it;s impact on the Elise is very welcome, - I mean that I really would love anyone to challenge me on my technical views about this engine if they feel able, and to develop a thoroughly lively and informed debate about the K20a2's merits or otherwise.

Sadly perhaps, no-one on here (discounting Scuffers) has taken the time to deconstruct it from an engineering point of view, I think you are probably aware of this and aware you are unlikely to see a fact based reproach to your findings on the engine.

I don't think scuffers has 'deconstructed' a K20? - I seem to remember him admonishing me on seloc years ago by way of saying that he was not an engine builder, I belive he uses Ian at Clockwisemotion to build his K20's though I know Maidstone frequently strip them to rebuild with steel rods and forged pistons these days, and he used QED to build his Ks.


From MCS WEBSITE
"{Built Honda K20A2 engines

Option1) Normally aspirated with cosworth rods and HC pistons. ADL bearings, phosphor bronze valve guides. New timming chains, oil pumps etc"}
http://www.hondaelise.com/conversion-pa ... xtras.html


On the other hand I have deconstructed the K20 on this thread with copious illustrations FOR YOU so all you need to do is express a technical opinion on the photos or my points - and I'd enjoy the debate, so please do.

The post was compeletely not about Scuffers, I only mentioned him as I don't know what level of knowledge he has. To be honest, any he does have is probably irrelevant as I can't imagine you'd take it on board much (with the rest of the thread as evidence of this).

So what I'm saying is you seem to be trying to have a debate with people who do not have the depth of knowledge to debate it with you.

[KingK_series]

The post was compeletely not about Scuffers, I only mentioned him as I don't know what level of knowledge he has. To be honest, any he does have is probably irrelevant as I can't imagine you'd take it on board much (with the rest of the thread as evidence of this).

So what I'm saying is you seem to be trying to have a debate with people who do not have the depth of knowledge to debate it with you.

I'd be happy to debate technically with scuffers, - but he seldom affords the opportunity, sadly - one rare exception was the fueling / sequential set up posts on "why i like k20s'

- good stuff, enjoy that.

however anyone can or is welcome to comment on the technical posts here and a few have......... brilliant, but whatever the level of discussion I hope it broadens and deepens understanding of what these engines actually are. -

For instance there has been much misplaced and misunderstood discussion of the K's counterweighting on seloc over the years causing not a few people to expensively modify their cranks with HMI. Something that I was in part responsible for having commissioned the initial study, however it was for study only and never in my mind fit for use in a engine running above testbench speeds if 750rpm. Showing pics of the Honda cranks and discussing the fact that these too are very undercounterweighted, as in fact most production I4s. My hope is that that is eye opening - ?