Project Build - Elise GT: Honda Swap / Widebody Conversion

[renmure]

If this build is not your cup of tea... Move on. Your approval is neither desired or needed. Good day sir!

[KingK_series]

I'm not sure what you mean... or where you're coming from, but my sense tells me your just provoking argument without intellect. Yes, my 2.4L upgrade added 100lbs. Well worth the power gained. Being here in the US without access to Rover repair parts, I can't afford to have an engine that requires constant attention/rebuilds. I think everyone will agree that the Rover engines are crap. You might be proud of them, but they are what they are... undependable.

To point... Are you a simple purist who can't stand to see modifications to another car, or just some dork looking to offend. If this build is not your cup of tea... Move on. Your approval is neither desired or needed. Good day sir!

I am trying to have a reasoned argument, and I fail to see why you are offended by some pretty straightforward observations.

- I'll quote Richard Hill aerodynamicist on the S1 Elise and Tony Schute who needs no introduction.

'Initially drag was a massive CD0.443 and rear lift measured at CLR +0.122, with frontal area of 1.47 - To which Shute observed 'there are small vans with a smaller frontal area than that"

'These wind tunnel tests resulted in a modification and hence aero stability that the [similarly shaped rear] Audi TT failed to find in production, and which had to be recalled after a high customer crash rate. As for the Audi - the solution was a rear spoiler. Just the add on feature that the stylists vehemently wanted to do without on the Elise."


"Ideally Richard Hill had wanted a larger rear spoiler, but when that was vetoed, a flat floor and rear diffuser was added, which finally not just eliminated the rear lift, but provided a modest amount of rear downforce."


That's from the guys that designed your car and spent many hours in the windtunnel - the result of which were bun fights with the stylists in order to sort the issue.

Still no race car, it's certainly not LMP downforce, but it is I suggest it is the way the car evolved.

[Dominic]

If this build is not your cup of tea... Move on. Your approval is neither desired or needed. Good day sir!

[Dominic]

I am trying to have a reasoned argument,

Perhaps some people don't come on line to argue, but simply to share their experience and enthusiasm. There will always be people in the world who do things that others don't agree with. Live & let live.

[KingK_series]

I am trying to have a reasoned argument,

Perhaps some people don't come on line to argue, but simply to share their experience and enthusiasm. There will always be people in the world who do things that others don't agree with. Live & let live.

I have no argument with the modded bodywork illustrated in this thread, and never said I did so why do you say that/

however I did disagree with this statement ;-
"

Re: Project Build - Elise GT: Honda Swap / Widebody Conversi

Postby MacLotus » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:11 pm
Balance when weighed was 49.5%F/50.5%F. Weight has been evenly distributed around the car. In fact, an Exige rear clam has a third more glass, so the argument found be made that throws balance off. Then add a wing... How much does that add in weight and downforce. Truth is, an Elise has TERRIBLE rear lift to an inherent poor aerodynamic design in the rear. Uncorrected, additional weight helps. I think your balance argument as an 'issue' specific to my redesign is not fully thought through. Just MHO. Cheers!
Ken

1999 Lotus Elise Sport 190 - NA Acura K24 - 262whp"


- Because I believe it to be factually incorrect. I believe the S1 has some front end lift, but has some rear downforce in stock form, and have have tried to draw peoples attention to what the Lotus engineers responsible have said or written.

I think plenty of people disagree with opinion or statements other people make on this forum and indeed every medium of human interaction, why should that be so intolerable? or are we all to refrain from voicing any view of any thought or comment no matter how debatable and just jolly along slapping everyone on the back and uttering sycophantic congratulations to everyone all the time no matter what. That would get pretty boring don't you think?

[renmure]

or are we all to refrain from voicing any view of any thought or comment no matter how debatable and just jolly along slapping everyone on the back and uttering sycophantic congratulations to everyone all the time no matter what. That would get pretty boring don't you think?

The issue for me (personally) is that you (specifically) cause (almost) every thread you participate in to become derailed and shunted towards a path of your own agenda... who you know, what you know, how much you know, how little anyone else knows, how nothing that anyone else knows is as relevant as what you know, blah blah blah.. It gets boring, it gets monotonous, it gets dreary and it gets wearing.

The unfortunate consequence (for me) is that I end up not bothering to look back at threads where you participate because I can't be bothered making an attempt to separate the good from the collateral bad. Interesting threads become KingK threads. For you this may be good. For me it is bad.

You appear to have a "platform" on SE, supported by the mods who make sure you don't get personal abuse, in the Honda thread and the K-Series thread to espouse away to your hearts content where you can meet argument with argument and have your "reasoned argument" with whoever wants to participate and pick up the gauntlet. That is great. I am not suggesting you stick to these threads, but maybe suggest that before you try to turn every thread you participate in into a "reasoned argument" that you take a step back, draw a deep breath... and step away from the keyboard.

No offense intended and I appreciate that for some weird reason you don't see the blindingly obvious truth in the above.

Jim

[KingK_series]

or are we all to refrain from voicing any view of any thought or comment no matter how debatable and just jolly along slapping everyone on the back and uttering sycophantic congratulations to everyone all the time no matter what. That would get pretty boring don't you think?

The issue for me (personally) is that you (specifically) cause (almost) every thread you participate in to become derailed and shunted towards a path of your own agenda... who you know, what you know, how much you know, how little anyone else knows, how nothing that anyone else knows is as relevant as what you know, blah blah blah.. It gets boring, it gets monotonous, it gets dreary and it gets wearing.

The unfortunate consequence (for me) is that I end up not bothering to look back at threads where you participate because I can't be bothered making an attempt to separate the good from the collateral bad. Interesting threads become KingK threads. For you this may be good. For me it is bad.

You appear to have a "platform" on SE, supported by the mods who make sure you don't get personal abuse, in the Honda thread and the K-Series thread to espouse away to your hearts content where you can meet argument with argument and have your "reasoned argument" with whoever wants to participate and pick up the gauntlet. That is great. I am not suggesting you stick to these threads, but maybe suggest that before you try to turn every thread you participate in into a "reasoned argument" that you take a step back, draw a deep breath... and step away from the keyboard.

No offense intended and I appreciate that for some weird reason you don't see the blindingly obvious truth in the above.

Jim

The above post is exclusively about aerodynamics, and specifically lift on the stock S1, a subject about which I have never posted before on any forum, so where cam "my agenda" be there?


Could it be that you would rather just not hear any view that does not coincide with your own?

[Shug]

Your confrontational tone is getting very tiring. Please take this as a friendly warning.

[renmure]

so where cam "my agenda" be there?

Your agenda is self promotion. The rest is just detail.

Could it be that you would rather just not hear any view that does not coincide with your own?

Being honest, I would simply prefer not to hear your view. That's nothing to do with the message, only the messenger.

Anyhow, apologies to the mods and Maclotus. Another one bites the dust.

[KingK_series]

so where cam "my agenda" be there?

Your agenda is self promotion. The rest is just detail.

[
Anyhow, apologies to the mods and Maclotus. Another one bites the dust.

And how is that since I have nothing to do with Aero parts or modification?

[MacLotus]

No worries gentlemen. I'm most concerned about folks losing interest in this thread due to a circular banter of inaccuracy relating to the Elise deign.

Fact: The Elise was NOT designed with aerodynamics as a priority. It was designed artistically, for a specific look. That's not a bad thing... it's a production street car, and esthetics are most important to the consumer market. By no means was the approach from a race car builder's perspective. Your faith in the R&D inherently built into the Elise is misguided and uninformed.

That said, I LOVE the Elise. The LOOK is fantastic, especially the S1. Watch the following video regarding the Elise in the wind tunnel...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbxGDfqty_U

You indicate the Elise has a front lift issue... Wrong. Drive it at 135mph and then make your analysis. Don't simply repeat what you heard on some other thread as fact.

You indicate massive weight added to the car, specifically the rear.... False assumption. Weight is added evenly around the car... a price paid to make a brick more aerodynamic at high speed.

You indicate excessive drag by the cars front design. It's the same as the Exige with the exception that it is a little wider to direct air around the wider front wheels. While your observation is technically correct, your assumption that this will have some sort of quantitative negative effect on performance (as it relates to the Exige) is 'splitting hairs' and most likely immeasurable by a driver on the track.

Lastly... this is not a race car. The Elise is not suitable for racing by most US Race Sanctions, not to mention its poor design for that purpose (Front wishbones attached to aluminum - impossible to repair after a slight bump). Too expensive to race over here... better options. Weight while important and considered, is NOT the primary focus on this car. The focus is to develop a unique car that looks great, is fast, and performs well. A Lotus street-based supercar.

[Dominic]

As mentioned before, I for am enjoying seeing your build thread, and look forward to further updates. I appreciate the time you have taken to share the build with us so far!



Dom

[KingK_series]

That said, you indicate massive weight added to the car, specifically the rear.... False assumption.

You indicate the Elise has a front lift issue... Wrong. Drive it at 135mph and then make your analysis. Don't simply repeat what you heard on some other thread as fact.

I have driven both S1 and S2 well above 135.

I am unclear why you think that the wind tunnel testing showing rear down force [all be it modest] will disappear at 135mph?

[MacLotus]

As mentioned before, I for am enjoying seeing your build thread, and look forward to further updates. I appreciate the time you have taken to share the build with us so far!



Dom

Absolutely Dom!

[Mikie711]

Loving your work Mac. Be an epic car when finished