Why don't I like Honda K20's

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KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:59 am

Dipper wrote:putting aside all the nonsense, what i still dont get(and i think i posted this months ago) is, why the k series? its not been made for years, its dead and gone(as is the K20 now). if going to the expense of a conversion now(or contemplating a uber bling, uber expensive king k engine rebuild) why not go with something modern? ive no idea what but surely there must be light weight, pokey, reliable engines that would be better for the job? eg. theres a plethora of tiny cc turbod cars and the likes these days.

as all the s1's and early k series s2's are kicking on a bit now is there really much of a market for expensive conversions/rebuilds? I know i had a brief moment when i contemplated SC'ing my honda'd car but when you do the sums it would be more cost effective to buy a much newer car with the 260 conversion. :scratch

Why K series?

Because it remains a modern design - ie twin cam, with both crank and cam ladders instead of bearing caps, unlike the Duratec and even the Honda uses old fashioned cam bearing caps, it is totally reliable if built properly [which has been the biggest bugbear until now] and the cooling issue [so called "HGF"] is now understood and mastered with a properly designed pump, block and head waterway mods, plus 74 deg PRT. Rebuilds do not need to be expensive, especially if quality parts are used in the first build ie coated steel liners rather than soft cast iron liners like those in the Honda, Toyota and OEM k, DLC tappets, coated rings etc etc all of which make an engine last so much longer, but do not come in any production I4 engine.Plus it keeps the car original, which is the way to preserve it's value long term. Plus now the work has been done to design, tool and make these parts, the engine is totally independent of production replacement parts and can never therefore become obsolescent unless they stop making petrol.

KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:11 am

BiggestNizzy wrote: Everyone makes a big thing about Chapmans performance through lightweight thing, personally I don't think he gave a sh*t about it he cared about winning races (road cars helped pay for that hobby) and having something lighter made you go faster. He was an Engineer and thought like one.

Did you ever meet Chapman?

I never did, but I have several friends who knew him really well, one Mark raced for Chapman, and I can tell you the one thing they all say is that he was obsessed with weight, he did everything to lose weight, and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever he would be mystified and offended at the thought of putting a heavier engine in one of his cars, I believe the Honda is absolutely against the very essence of both Chapman and Lotus.

More every F1 engineer I know which is several, including Adrian Newey absolutely agree, and I can tell you there was never any conversation about putting a heavier engine in Adrian's Elise, he has a light and more powerful than any Honda SC CC Rover K series in his car. (disputed fact removed - Shug)

KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:20 am

BiggestNizzy wrote:As I read this a Honda K is heavier than a rover K, everyone agree's conversions seem to save some weight which offsets the corner weights a bit.

Tut has a Honda with lots of power, you have built rover K powered cars with lots of power. They both have there merits I'm sure some people will prefer opne route some the other as we are all different we will never get an agreement on what is "best"

Let us leave it at that please. I enjoy the technical threads can we leave them at this is good, this is bad this is why.

Why?

The issue is that the idea has been fashioned that the Rover engine is hopelessly unreliable

That is only true when the build is botched, which unfortunately has been the experience of many and continues to this day as Back on Track will tell you as of the last few weeks, from a number of "tuners" who have done a really bad job - their work is clearly illustrated on the K thread.

Otherwise that is untrue, it certainly does not need to be true. My old BTCC engine demonstrates that.


secondly the Honda has been ruthlessly marketed on the basis that a HondaK20/box/starter/alternator/mounts/shafts and ss exhaust are only 15kg heavier than stock Rover/PG1/starter/alternator/mounts/shafts and ss exhaust.

That is totally NOT TRUE.

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Mikie711
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by Mikie711 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:45 am

SO WHAT !!!!

Who cares, the weight difference is of little or no importance. Nobody I know who has a honda powered car even thinks about the weight difference because the extra power the conversion brings more than makes up for it. You are not going to change the opinions of people who are in the market for a honda engine. The 2 main reasons for doing the conversion are more power and better reliability. And how ever you cut and slice it the rover engine is unreliable and not very cost effective when it comes to tuning.
You can get more power from a K20 with a lot less cash and hassle than from a K, There is only a couple of K engines that I have read about got anywhere near 300bhp, on a K20 all you need is a SC and 300bhp is there. Tuts car is living proof that you can rag the sh!t out of a K20 for years with little in the way of maintenance, sorry tut, and it'll run and run.

This not a point for discussion it's just to highlight your flogging a dead horse, there is know doubt you know what your talking about but the K is now, what 20 years old. Times have changed and technology has moved on. If someone wants a high powered Elise now they will be likely be looking for a 'yota based car with 190bhp out of the box and reliable.
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KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:56 am

Mikie711 wrote:SO WHAT !!!!

Who cares, the weight difference is of little or no importance. Nobody I know who has a honda powered car even thinks about the weight difference because the extra power the conversion brings more than makes up for it. You are not going to change the opinions of people who are in the market for a honda engine. The 2 main reasons for doing the conversion are more power and better reliability. And how ever you cut and slice it the rover engine is unreliable and not very cost effective when it comes to tuning.
You can get more power from a K20 with a lot less cash and hassle than from a K, There is only a couple of K engines that I have read about got anywhere near 300bhp, on a K20 all you need is a SC and 300bhp is there. Tuts car is living proof that you can rag the sh!t out of a K20 for years with little in the way of maintenance, sorry tut, and it'll run and run.

This not a point for discussion it's just to highlight your flogging a dead horse, there is know doubt you know what your talking about but the K is now, what 20 years old. Times have changed and technology has moved on. If someone wants a high powered Elise now they will be likely be looking for a 'yota based car with 190bhp out of the box and reliable.

Rubbish!

the enormous weight penalty of a honda conversion makes a difference in a straight line, braking and round corners.

Did you not read Bob Hiscot's post on here about how his 300bhp sc Rover engine overhauled a 360bhp Honda SCCC engine in a straight line.

Remind him Bob..

And did you not read Dave Walkers piece about how the Yota engine had nothing on the K on the rollers until the second cam kicked in over 6500rpm but that the car was so much heavier it had no advantage in a straight line and was slower round any corner and poor on the brakes. He was scathing. - have you not seen that?

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Shug
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by Shug » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:15 am

KingK_series wrote:
Rubbish!
In your opinion. Which you're entitled to. As are others to theirs.
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:26 am

Shug wrote:
KingK_series wrote:
Rubbish!
In your opinion. Which you're entitled to. As are others to theirs.

Absolutely!

and here is some substance to my opinion;-

A totally stock HondaK20A2, late model, with no engine loom, engine mount or alternator or alternator belt, which has been stripped to drain and clean all oil and water from the engine.

Image
thats 122.4kg


A totally stock Euro3 K series with heavy OEM flywheel, some engine loom, engine block part of mount, no alternator dry

Image


that's 84.5 kg in exactly the same state as the HondaK20A2 above bar heavy Rover flywheel

that's 37.9kg difference by my calcs -

and here is an absolutely stock Rover S1 EURO2 engine [normally slightly heavier than S2 with single coil] but with my lightweight flywheel but adding also my engine mount

Image


at 79.7kg in identical trim to the Honda, bar that my K has more engine mount than the Honda was weighed with

- by my calcs that's 42.7kg difference


and what I call a KingK engine that's a dry sump-ed 1.8, 1.9, ,20 litre or turbo engine with All my parts is a lot less than 79.7kg.

So Roadboy, Scuffers how on earth do you get that the honda install is just 15kg more?

Really? - are you saying the PG1 is 25kg more than the Honda box.......??

I'd love to know....
Last edited by KingK_series on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:53 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Shug
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by Shug » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:29 am

Opinions, by definition, are neither right or wrong so substantiating them with facts is a waste of time.

Everybody's time.
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KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:33 am

Shug wrote:Opinions, by definition, are neither right or wrong so substantiating them with facts is a waste of time.

Everybody's time.

then I shall prove that the Honda does not weigh merely 15kg more than a stock Rover as Scuffers, Roadboy et al insist.

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cstrachan
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by cstrachan » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:59 am

Why weigh them empty they are never going to be used that way? Weigh the car with full fluids before and after the complete install that will be fact.

Anything else is just drivel IMHO.
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hiscot
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by hiscot » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:04 pm

Did you not read Bob Hiscot's post on here about how his 300bhp sc Rover engine overhauled a 360bhp Honda SCCC engine in a straight line.

Remind him Bob..

Sorry simon this was my post I have never had a 300bhp rover nor a supercharge one mine is a turbo k



http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/vie ... o+technics

note the rover engine is a turbo technics approx 220 supercharge vs a n/a honda approx 220 bhp ?
bob

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KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:05 pm

cstrachan wrote:Why weigh them empty they are never going to be used that way? Weigh the car with full fluids before and after the complete install that will be fact.

Anything else is just drivel IMHO.

Because then the Honda will be even heavier, since it runs more fluids.

however I will keep going on this to nail every permutation of engine instal,

right now I'd really like to see if any of the honda conversion crew are man enough to admit that this claim that the Honda install is just 15kg heavier than even a stock Rover +ss exhaust install is absolutely pure fabrication.

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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:12 pm

hiscot wrote:Did you not read Bob Hiscot's post on here about how his 300bhp sc Rover engine overhauled a 360bhp Honda SCCC engine in a straight line.

Remind him Bob..

Sorry simon this was my post I have never had a 300bhp rover nor a supercharge one mine is a turbo k



http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/vie ... o+technics

note the rover engine is a turbo technics approx 220 supercharge vs a n/a honda approx 220 bhp ?

Apologies I misread that, but your engine was not finished at that point was it?

.

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Dipper
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by Dipper » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:18 pm

"right now I'd really like to see if any of the honda conversion crew are man enough to admit that this claim that the Honda install is just 15kg heavier than even a stock Rover +ss exhaust install is absolutely pure fabrication.[/quote]"

i for one cant admit to something i have no proof for. if its heavier then its heavier. im man enough to admit that i really dont give a toss. im happy with it regardless of the weight. it goes like stink and handles great. im also man enough to admit that if a lighter, affordable, 220bhp, reliable k series was available then id be all over it

so far ive established that the k is lighter but despite all your posts i still dont know if its affordable or reliable. if it was id seriously consider getting an early k s2 as theyre far cheaper than a used honda conversion and letting you sort it out. seriously, it would be a no brainer.

KingK_series
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Re: Why don't I like Honda K20's

Post by KingK_series » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:21 pm

KingK_series wrote:
hiscot wrote:Did you not read Bob Hiscot's post on here about how his 300bhp sc Rover engine overhauled a 360bhp Honda SCCC engine in a straight line.

Remind him Bob..

Sorry simon this was my post I have never had a 300bhp rover nor a supercharge one mine is a turbo k



http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/vie ... o+technics

note the rover engine is a turbo technics approx 220 supercharge vs a n/a honda approx 220 bhp ?

Apologies I misread that, but your engine was not finished at that point was it?

.
But here is the Toyota quote from Dave Walker

Image

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