Slow in fast out = myth?

[flyingscot68]

I don't have any track experience in a car but plenty on a bike.

It's not so much 'slow' in fast out, but 'not too fast in' fast out.

That's what I've always been taught anyway, if you over cook the entry you'll always ruin the exit, if you enter a little slower than you could it won't affect your exit as much as being a little faster in than the vehicle is capable of.

[ryallm]

Interesting article here on The Iceman's driving style, which seems to be: very fast in, minutely balance the car on brakes and throttle, and even faster out. http://peterwindsor.com/2012/03/23/note ... ving-2012/ Not applicable to those of us with mere mortal talents, but interesting nonetheless

Mark

[campbell]

So steering feel is important to Kimi. Just as well he is driving a Lotus then

Good spot, Mark, enjoyed that.

[dirkpitt]

Progressive in progressive out.....maybe a better terminology?

[Andy G]

The braking point is totally valid...threshold braking makes a massive difference to the trackway driver. Single biggest difference in most people on a track day is braking IMHO .

[SAJ]

I'm just slow in slow out full stop - I really need to learn how to drive my car properly.

Of course i'm an expert in going fast in a straight line very few people can do that

[rossybee]

"Slow in fast out" is almost the only way in a car which is inherently unstable under hard braking - my TVR Griffith 500 even had this saying in the handbook's foreword by the late great Peter Wheeler, which served me well as a 26yr old loon with limited rwd experience.

I managed 5 full years without venturing too far into the scenery (well it always managed out under its own power )

[StiflerMR2]

Another piece by the same author:

http://jalopnik.com/5954200/why-differe ... st-as-fast

Why Different Driving Styles Can Be Just As Fast
alex lloyd

Seldom do we all agree. Some like blondes, others brunettes, and some even like gingers. Some people wear tweed jackets, others would burn a man in tweed. I enjoy questionable music, I hate oysters, and I can't understand a bloody word people from Georgia say.

But just because I like Carly Rae Jepsen and you like Slayer does that mean I am wrong?

As different as we all are, there are a few things in life we should all agree on:

1.) The Acura ZDX is fugly.
2.) Synchronized swimming is odd.
3.) People with long beards are not to be trusted.
4.) Different does NOT mean wrong.

Our differences as human beings translate to our driving. Each driver adopts a unique style; many may seem similar, but each has its own subtle traits.

Drivers like Lewis Hamilton turn in earlier than most, and are notoriously aggressive with the wheel, causing tire degradation. Jenson Button, however, is far smoother and scores when tire wear becomes an issue. Dario Franchitti uses very little brake pressure, allowing him to run a lower ride height, generating more downforce. Tony Kanaan uses more brake pressure than most legs could ever muster.

Each example demonstrates differences in style, and yet all these drivers are at the top of their game, despite employing dissimilar techniques. None of the above methods are wrong, but most styles do not go hand-in-hand.

Why Different Driving Styles Can Be Just As FastIt is difficult to morph a naturally smooth driver into an aggressive savage, or to transform the master of corner exits into the ruler of corner entry. It's very hard to manipulate a natural, God given style, and divert into something completely different.

If you have experience on track, you probably know what comes naturally and what does not. Just because one person says you should drive a certain way, doesn't mean that you should do so, even if that driver is faster than you. The important aspect for any good amateur racer is to work with the tools you have. Don't reinvent the wheel — unless you are truly useless.

If you are a driver who is smooth on the wheel and loves rear grip on entry, try to find some pros (like Button) who are in the same boat as you are. Study their driving; look for various quotes and interviews to dissect what they do differently. Then channel that information and tweak your style to produce a more well-rounded, faster driver.

There are countless stories of drivers attempting to emulate a rival's style, and, usually, they can't do it. They get frustrated and end up doing worse. Look at what you can incorporate into your driving that still keeps the style the same. How can you tweak the platform you already have to take you to the next level?

Why Different Driving Styles Can Be Just As FastTrying to drive like Lewis Hamilton if you are Jenson Button is a waste of time. Both drivers have a different approach to achieving the same goal. Jenson knows his smooth, calm style makes it tougher for him in qualifying, but rather than completely change what has worked for him throughout his entire career, he has incorporated what he can, and used his strengths (his race performance – looking after the tires) to propel him into victory lane on numerous occasions.

Trying different techniques is important. But most important is to understand what works for you, and what does not. Being adaptable is the key to great driving, but realizing what is feasible, given your natural style, and not venturing too far is a necessity.

People will always say you are wrong. You need to be more aggressive. You need to be smoother. You need to brake later and harder. You need to brake earlier and softer (rolling more speed into the bend). Carry speed through apex. Sacrifice speed at apex to rotate the car and go. I'm sure you've heard it all.

But just because others do it a certain way, that doesn't mean it will work for you.

Why Different Driving Styles Can Be Just As FastKnow yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses. Stick with it, and stay strong, regardless of what others say. I like Carly Rae Jepsen. And I don't give a sh*t.

[Shug]

All valid points, but I feel he's talking about the final finessing, not the grand ideas. What you'll find is folks who are new to the track will be too aggressive, rushing at stuff, or far too timid - but it's a wild swing. What usually happens is people naturally swing way below and way beyond the grip/slip curve - naturally homing in on that sweet spot. Once you're around the sweet spot, debates like this can go on as to how, exactly, you approach the limit.

I've tended on track to be quite smooth - braking a bit earlier and carrying that braking into the corner to rotate the car better by apex, then riding any slide out. Quite front-endy. I've sat in many pax seats of some seriously fast guys and one thing you can note is that nobody does it exactly the same - so he's right. What works for one doesn't necessarily make another faster.

Key to point out that this is all once you've reached a certain point of pace and consistency though. It's still helpful for those new to the track to follow some fairly simple guidelines to find their feet safely and quickly and approach the limits, so they can then go on and discover this stuff about their driving when they get there.

[StiflerMR2]

I agree with you Shug, I think once you are confident with navigating the track and your style it's nice to then finesse that approach.

Having said that I've always been a very cautious track driver, breaking too early for too long and perhaps, turning in too late (but in my mind I was very smooth - read slow ).

It was only after my most recent bout of tuition from Rory did he teach me to be much more aggressive at turn in and I was truly shocked at the speed at which I could turn the car in and still feel comfortable with the car on entry as well as being in total control. Left to my own devices I doubt I would ever have behaved in such a manner (perhaps a failing on my part - and man points were duly deducted ).

The point I make with the above is that in many ways it has fundamentally changed my style, approach and thought process completely, for the better I may add.

With regards the article, I enjoy reading them and was not offering it up as a "how to" guide. Just as a point of interest

[Shug]

I enjoy his articles and was not offering it up as a "how to" guide. Just as a point of interest

Cool - totally, yeah. Just felt it important to make the point to any track newbies reading that perhaps the best thing to begin with isn't to rush at a corner trying to emulate Lewis Hamilton! Would not be the first time I'd been in the pax seat with someone trying just that...

Edit - and to address your other point, for sure the best thing anyone can do is get training. Even if you establish that some instructors will teach slightly different things, so in some cases it's worth finding one who is sympathetic to the way you naturally drive - of course, that's at the proper finesse stage again. Any training you can get as you learn is a major benefit. One I probably didn't take as much advantage of as I could have while I had the Elise, in hindsight.

[StiflerMR2]

I enjoy his articles and was not offering it up as a "how to" guide. Just as a point of interest

Cool - totally, yeah. Just felt it important to make the point to any track newbies reading that perhaps the best thing to begin with isn't to rush at a corner trying to emulate Lewis Hamilton! Would not be the first time I'd been in the pax seat with someone trying just that...

[Scotty C]

ive also found that different instructors pick up on different points.

Always good to get a lesson whenever you can.

[gambler]

ive also found that different instructors pick up on different points.

Always good to get a lesson whenever you can.

I am 100% with Scotty on that one. You can never have too much tuition and different instructors will see different things and even have different ideas on lines etc. Before I raced on the snetterton 300, i did a few laps in the 6 series with an instructor and she got me to try a completely different line into Brundle ( corner at the end of the long straight) It just seemed to work much better for my car. I was fastest of all the Pro classes through the braking point speed trap and yet kept the same apex and exit speed without compromising the next corner.

My view on the whole slow in fast out thing is that the exit speed is still the most important part of most corners, especially when there is a straight after the corner. When you have got the exit speed just right then you can carry more speed into the other sectors of the corner.

[tut]

Into the 1,000 Club with your next post Scott.

tut