Why don't I like Honda K20's

[KingK_series]

i think that would get me back in an Elise. How much Simon??

depends where you're starting from....

for Jamie's, considering he started with a SC IC K20 with everything, it's probably in the order of £10-11K in parts then another £4-5k in install/dyno time/etc. and that does not include any other stuff we have done (datalogger additions, wheels, tyres, dampers, etc etc.)

So what £25k for the MSC sc cc k20 plus 10/11K plus 4-5K? = 45+ grand?// is that what you are saying?

that a lot of doh

and 600bhp is really par for for a 2L turbo??? - you cannot tell me that you think that special?

[Scuffers]

LOL!

that must be a record, only 11 hours and we have the same old cobblers...

remind me again, just what have you actually achieved with all the money you have conned out of people over the years?

are you now going to tell us about another mythical K you build that topps 600Hp and wins imaginary races all over the world?


Oh, and it's a bit more than £45K, you missed out the sequential gearbox, 4 way Quantums, T45 wishbones, GT uprights, FIA spec seat, bag tank, full AIM dash/logger, 4 pot brakes all round, full aero package, bespoke Dunlop Tyres, etc etc...

you know, a complete race car package, already well proven with this actual car having won time attack in 2010, 2012, and competing at the top level in 2013.

[campbell]

I think the two of you should be on Question Time. Dimbleby will sort you out for sure.

<yawn>

[mckeann]

Oh, and it's a bit more than £45K, you missed out the sequential gearbox, 4 way Quantums, T45 wishbones, GT uprights, FIA spec seat, bag tank, full AIM dash/logger, 4 pot brakes all round, full aero package, bespoke Dunlop Tyres, etc etc...

you know, a complete race car package, already well proven with this actual car having won time attack in 2010, 2012, and competing at the top level in 2013.

That's out of my league at moment i'm afraid, but have to admit, for something that could skelp anything this side of a slicks and wings formula car, that's a bit of a bargain.

[KingK_series]

I think the two of you should be on Question Time. Dimbleby will sort you out for sure.

<yawn>

Good idea,

but just watch this space......

[Scuffers]

That's out of my league at moment i'm afraid, but have to admit, for something that could skelp anything this side of a slicks and wings formula car, that's a bit of a bargain.

Kind of assumed as much... but hey, we can all want!

the problem with doing this stuff is it's all very much one-off work, and it just chews time/money.

to give you an idea, I have clocked up some ~3,000 miles just running about doing this car, often dragging it from place to place getting bits done etc. for example, it's been to the exhaust fabricators 3 times so far, they are some 160 miles away for me.

I would love to productionise this kind of stuff, but I doubt there is the demand, and I also know that as soon as I do, the pikey's will just copy it and under-cut me, at which point I get left high and dry with a huge development bill, I am not a rich person that needs to buy other peoples upgrades.

[KingK_series]

That's out of my league at moment i'm afraid, but have to admit, for something that could skelp anything this side of a slicks and wings formula car, that's a bit of a bargain.

Kind of assumed as much... but hey, we can all want!

the problem with doing this stuff is it's all very much one-off work, and it just chews time/money.

to give you an idea, I have clocked up some ~3,000 miles just running about doing this car, often dragging it from place to place getting bits done etc. for example, it's been to the exhaust fabricators 3 times so far, they are some 160 miles away for me.

I would love to productionise this kind of stuff, but I doubt there is the demand, and I also know that as soon as I do, the pikey's will just copy it and under-cut me, at which point I get left high and dry with a huge development bill, I am not a rich person that needs to buy other peoples upgrades.

Well that's one point we do agree on - or at least the the work and cost...we differ because all my work is being built into lots of engines - from BIG turbo engines to New generation K series on ITBs and a new Plenum design, ie casting to work with a Jenvey single TB of the type I used on my BTCC touring car.

my work has been;-

Complete new head casting
complete induction systems
valves
cams, in billet steel, 3 new profiles so far.
Kobi race wire springs
retainers +oil seals etc
pistons - ditto below
rods - ditto below
cranks - family of 4 different designs now for varying capacity's and different regs
dry sump system, including KingK sump casting.
flywheels
ignition systems
fuel systems
verniers
water pumps
oil pumps etc
exhaust systems
and thats just the engine..... I consider everything else totally separate, ie gearbox, mounts, suspension etc etc.


However this thread is about the Honda K20 and it's technical limitations

comparisons,, - and K series stuff is for another thread.

[Dipper]

already haing a k20 fitted i'm interested in it's limitations but also its potential in NA form.

Scuffers you might know this? mine is a stock uk engine as far as i know and ive a dyno print out showing 228bhp which is about right. ive not driven a sc car but im fairly sure id like to keep it NA. without going mental(say spending 2-4k), what could i reasonably excpect from a tuned NA? 250? 270?

half tempted to source another engine, get it sorted out and do a straight swap with mine

would i be better with a K24(possibly pricey unless my existing manifold will fit)

ive had a rake through various forums but trying to separate fact from fiction is near impossible!

[KingK_series]

.

[KingK_series]

already haing a k20 fitted i'm interested in it's limitations but also its potential in NA form.

Scuffers you might know this? mine is a stock uk engine as far as i know and ive a dyno print out showing 228bhp which is about right. ive not driven a sc car but im fairly sure id like to keep it NA. without going mental(say spending 2-4k), what could i reasonably excpect from a tuned NA? 250? 270?

half tempted to source another engine, get it sorted out and do a straight swap with mine

would i be better with a K24(possibly pricey unless my existing manifold will fit)

ive had a rake through various forums but trying to separate fact from fiction is near impossible!

Well the answer to that is - its one of the limitations of the k20 install in the Elise.


If truth be told a 2L Honda is just as capable of over 300bhp NA as one of my NA K series engines with ITBs etc,

- in touring car trim - limited to plenum, and single TB, with much much less cam than a stock K20A2 and with an 8500rpm limit they make the same 270-280bhp as my Touring Car engine all be it with 50kg more engine weight. You would never manage a Touring car spec engine in an Elise for the same reason - no induction space for the sophisticated induction design.

the MSC NA 240bhp step seems {?[ confined to cams which costs £1800 [http://www.maidstonesportscars.co.uk/se ... xtras.html[ without any other new parts - except chain ie no new pistons rods etc etc

but the install will always be deprived of easy gains from the induction facing the cabin which means ITBs are usefully impossible because induction length is uselessly too short - and ITBs ONLY work when length, taper, and airbox shape volume are correctly tuned which is absolutely impossible without turning the engine round.

[robin]

Hence forced induction is the more travelled path on engines this way around in an elise?.

[KingK_series]

Hence forced induction is the more travelled path on engines this way around in an elise?.

Exactly but at huge expense - MSC quote is £25,500 for engine sc, cc, cooler, clutch etc, and you another 15kg weight to add to the already unbelievably heavy engine and box

- but the bit that surprises me is that it is so expensive the Eaton M62

- it seems to me that even if you are content to supplied by the billions of the units since when ever it was launched would have made it cheaper than it is -??? very strange.

[Scuffers]

already haing a k20 fitted i'm interested in it's limitations but also its potential in NA form.

Scuffers you might know this? mine is a stock uk engine as far as i know and ive a dyno print out showing 228bhp which is about right. ive not driven a sc car but im fairly sure id like to keep it NA. without going mental(say spending 2-4k), what could i reasonably excpect from a tuned NA? 250? 270?

half tempted to source another engine, get it sorted out and do a straight swap with mine

would i be better with a K24(possibly pricey unless my existing manifold will fit)

ive had a rake through various forums but trying to separate fact from fiction is near impossible!

realistically, without spending money, there's not much to be gained on a std engine, yes, you can get 4-5hp here and there, but the costs mount up very quickly, and once you start talking about cracking open the engine for XYZ then it starts to get well out of hand very fast.

even with a big budget, to get 280+ out of a 1998cc one is near impossible (unless you want to spend £40+ K on engines)

yes, K24's can make more power but at the cost of revs, which tends to make them not so nice to drive (although that kind of depends what you're into).

forced induction is the cheap easy solution, std engine, simple bolt-ons, jobs a carrot, once you start to have built engines, costs go up massively as does reliability in the opposite direction.

Big problem with all this stuff is the interweb sh*t, for example, was reading a thread yesterday about somebody claiming some 698Hp at the hubs from a stock K20A2, no cams, nothing (apart from a big ass turbo etc) on 28Psi (~1.9Bar)

now, that's just not remotely credible, ignoring the loads on the rods/pistons etc. consider that I am only getting 570hp using 2 bar of boost, with a bored out 2,140cc built engine (and I am sure I will get told it's all in the tune etc.!)

[Dipper]

cheers. looks like its not worth the bother tuning NA then.

[Scuffers]

cheers. looks like its not worth the bother tuning NA then.

outside of bolt-ons, not really....

exhaust is where most of it is at, and if you want to keep a boot then that's your limit, you can get to ~215-220 (hubs) but after that it get's hard earned.

SC is cheap in terms of £/Hp