Independence SE Poll

[campbell]

Ask him. It seems to me he'll assure anyone who'll listen, of anything they ask, if it means they'll vote Yes.

"In an independent Scotland, we'll be able to control the weather without interference from a government in Westminster which we didn't vote for" etc etc

[j2 lot]

The only proper fact available is that we have a country that can stand on it's own two feet in the world, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

I don't think there is any argument on that Kenny - it is however at what cost? I also think that in the long term there is possibly benefit but in the short term you and I and all our countrymen, and probably the next generation too, will be worse off

[Rosssco]

Thing is, if we don't vote yes then we will be stuck as part of the UK, a country which, let's face it, is no longer great and hasn't been for a long time.

There's ALOT worse than the UK though.. You make it sound like its a cesspool that's stuck in the past, and in some ways it does have aspects that need reform, but its pretty much the same as an independant Scotland will be. There will be greater opportunity for chnage, either good or bad (or nowhere). So that's why, as it basically boils down to a big assessment of risk, why choose the riskier, more divisive option? There's nothing to really indicate (that I have seen) that we would take a more enlightened path, and in some ways, at least politically, we will miss out on some aspects of political diversity, which is not ideal unless you're striving for a left-wing country.

I think the point made above about there perhaps being a greater majority of people on being better off, hence would essentially vote to retain the status quo, not quite accurate. I think its because this forum is populated with intelligent folk (which may have some financial benefits ) who can see past the nationalist aspects of the debate and hence are not swayed by it, instead considering the issues at hand. We are all different, but I feel the pro-indy campaign looses some of its luster when it comes down to bare-faced facts and reality. That's not to say its a bad choice - we are all here because we made the emotional choice on vehicle selection! But there's certain things you gamble on and thing you don't. Ultimately, the UK isn't that bad (for me) that I would risk reducing my families living standards and prosperity on..

[flyingscot68]

I don't think there is any argument on that Kenny - it is however at what cost? I also think that in the long term there is possibly benefit but in the short term you and I and all our countrymen, and probably the next generation too, will be worse off

Probably won't cost anything if Scotland gets to keep Tut's and the rest of SE's speeding fines.

[BigD]

Thing is, if we don't vote yes then we will be stuck as part of the UK, a country which, let's face it, is no longer great and hasn't been for a long time.

There's ALOT worse than the UK though.. You make it sound like its a cesspool that's stuck in the past, and in some ways it does have aspects that need reform, but its pretty much the same as an independant Scotland will be. There will be greater opportunity for chnage, either good or bad (or nowhere). So that's why, as it basically boils down to a big assessment of risk, why choose the riskier, more divisive option? There's nothing to really indicate (that I have seen) that we would take a more enlightened path, and in some ways, at least politically, we will miss out on some aspects of political diversity, which is not ideal unless you're striving for a left-wing country.

I think the point made above about there perhaps being a greater majority of people on being better off, hence would essentially vote to retain the status quo, not quite accurate. I think its because this forum is populated with intelligent folk (which may have some financial benefits ) who can see past the nationalist aspects of the debate and hence are not swayed by it, instead considering the issues at hand. We are all different, but I feel the pro-indy campaign looses some of its luster when it comes down to bare-faced facts and reality. That's not to say its a bad choice - we are all here because we made the emotional choice on vehicle selection! But there's certain things you gamble on and thing you don't. Ultimately, the UK isn't that bad (for me) that I would risk reducing my families living standards and prosperity on..

[flyingscot68]

There's ALOT worse than the UK though.. You make it sound like its a cesspool that's stuck in the past, and in some ways it does have aspects that need reform, but its pretty much the same as an independant Scotland will be.


I feel the pro-indy campaign looses some of its luster when it comes down to bare-faced facts and reality.

How exactly do I make the UK sound like a cesspool? You've taken liberties with that statement.

Please tell me where these 'facts' come from. My whole point is that there are no facts, it's all speculation.

[Stevoraith]

My whole point is that there are no facts, it's all speculation.

I think you are making the case for a No vote there!

If you are going to persuade people to take a risk, the very minimum you should do is give an accurate forecast of the potential reward.

The Yes campaign seem only to be able to provide guesswork and "ach it'll be fine" guarantees.

[flyingscot68]

My whole point is that there are no facts, it's all speculation.

I think you are making the case for a No vote there!

If you are going to persuade people to take a risk, the very minimum you should do is give an accurate forecast of the potential reward.

The Yes campaign seem only to be able to provide guesswork and "ach it'll be fine" guarantees.

Well, that's kind of true in a way.

I'm just trying to avoid all the rubbish that people are writing, saying it'll be this or it'll be that when really they don't know anything for sure.

As I think I said before, I was a solid No voter but the constant negativity from the No's started to grate on me, why can't we make Scotland better than it already is? It doesn't matter what people say about how bad they think a Yes vote could make it, that's all speculation too.
I am firmly of the opinion that we the people who work and live and run Scotland could make it a better place than it is or will be under the union. It's not nationalism or left wing-ism (is that a word?) it's just my belief based on the people I live and work with. For the record, I've never in my life voted either Labour or SNP.

It would be great if the future could all be written down for us in a factual manner but that's the nature of this, it can't be. I do wish however that it wasn't Alex Salmond that was running things as he's a bad advert for independence, he's gone about it all wrong IMHO.

I'm not going to say any more about this as I'm obviously heavily outnumbered on here, but if what I've said has made one person look at the whole debate from a more personal point of view rather than what's in the media then I'm happy.

[Jeremy]

What negativity ? Not agreeing with someones viewpoint or asking for data/facts/statistics/reasoned logic to back up what someone is presenting as gospel fact is not negativity. As my old Grandpops used to say, when someone starts insulting you then they've lost the argument. These constant 'negativity' accusations are a huge own goal from the Yes camp for me personally, and are actually 'negative' in their own right.

I've heard first hand some crazy logic for people arriving at the decision of which way they will vote, from both sides of the debate, ranging from "the Tories bought Prince William a helicopter, I'm voting for independence" to "I'll get £xxxx if we go independent, I'll get a holiday and a new car out of that" (thinking it will be in the form of a cash payment ) right through to "Salmond looked like a right twat waving that handkerchief sized saltire when Andy Murray won at Wimbledon, I'm voting No".

Perhaps we should all have to take an IQ test before being allowed near a ballot paper ?

Regards,

Jeremy

[Lazydonkey]

Are there any negatives to a "yes" vote as far as yes campaigners are concerned?

Reading some of the "literature" that's come through my door from yes they are all but promising free unicorns for everyone that votes yes.

I'd be much more inclined to listen to the yes campaigners if there was a balanced pitch that said "in exchange for blah blah blah we will get xyz"

I do that at work, spend x and get y. You weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision.

Very rarely does a supplier pitch up at my door and promise to make all my problems go away for free. If they did I'd smell sh*t and shut the door. That's how I feel about the yes blurb. It's all positive with no downsides. That doesn't feel right.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[campbell]

I'm not going to say any more about this as I'm obviously heavily outnumbered on here, but if what I've said has made one person look at the whole debate from a more personal point of view rather than what's in the media then I'm happy.

Don't bail out the debate, by any means, Kenny. Most if not ll are doing a fine job of leaving deep seated emotion and insults out of it here on SE, yourself included, and you have made some thought-provoking points

[Mikie711]

I'd be much more inclined to listen to the yes campaigners if there was a balanced pitch that said "in exchange for blah blah blah we will get xyz"

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That is where the whole debate has fallen down, there has been no negotiation prior to the vote. From the get go Westminster said they would not negotiate until after the referendum, which on the face of it made sense at the time, why waste days discussing something that might not happen. However it means that it is impossible to make anything like a plan when you don't have key facts. I personally think it was very clever politics on the part of Cameron and his cronies because it makes rubbishing any proposed plan very easy.
The currency thing is a point in fact, it'll be the pound simple. It has to be for both sides, with or without currency union. We export heavily to them, they export heavily to us. But still it drags on. Europe could have been settled by the UK government asking for formal clarification, apparently the request has to come from the sitting government, but they never asked. Key issues that could have been put to rest before the debate even started.
If, as they say, that the union is best for Scotland then why hinder any attempts at an alternative. If it is the best for Scotland then surely this would be seen even with these issue settled.

Oh and Kenny please stay, I need the help

[Lazydonkey]

I understand that many things are up in the air but even that being spun as a positive.

However you still did a selective quote and haven't answered my question. Do you see any negatives?

Edit : I'm not sure you can blame Westminster for not negotiating. Again if it was work would you entertain someone saying "if i get a new job offer what will you pay me to stay". Most employers wouldn't even get into that discussion... They'd try and get the person to stay, why are they leaving etc etc.

[Corranga]

This thread is descending into exactly the same craziness I see from off forum Yes voters. I can't comprehend it, and I guess that's why I am a No voter!

As I see it, the argument is now simply:
Scotland should be independent simply because it can be. We can stand up and be a nation, and why shouldn't we.

It sounds kinda familiar...

But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Now, when I hear that, I sing along, and my hair stands on end, and I feel proud, and I am proud.
We live in an awesome country, we've invented and made some amazing things, have a rich heritage and history, have you been outside? It's beautiful out there, and there is some amazing things to see an do.
We love to punch above our weight, and we're generally rather good at it.

Does this make a case for independence? Of course it doesn't!
It's like deciding that you should just keep your Elise when you want a 200mph suprcar and modifying it until it fits the bill. There is no question as to whether or not it will work, the question is whether it needs to, or whether it's best for you, and simply, nothing says it will, or it is.

Chris

[OlberJ]

Edit : I'm not sure you can blame Westminster for not negotiating. Again if it was work would you entertain someone saying "if i get a new job offer what will you pay me to stay". Most employers wouldn't even get into that discussion... They'd try and get the person to stay, why are they leaving etc etc.

That's the rub, they're not our employers, they're our business partners.

If you look at it that way then the discussion of how things are dealt with in the option of you going it alone becomes very different.