S2 Toe Links

[BigD]

Following on from the other thread which was mainly S1 Toe Links whats the story with the S2 ones?

From reading, these are stronger than the S1 ones but I've still heard of these breaking too. McKean broke one on Mt Ventoux from memory?! Where they the original ones? Obviously a lot of hard track miles. What age mileage do these go at?

Anyway, I had mine checked and they are still OK at the moment (assuming the check is to see if they are seized or not) as the car is pretty low mileage however I guess it's only a matter of time if doing trackdays etc that they will require replacement.

I had looked at stock ones from Deroure which come in at £190 for the pair so looking at Elise shop upgrades at £250, would it be better to upgrade? There is more to the fitting of these though with new brakets etc. Or do you just replace with the stock ones?

Just trying to avoid any obvious avoidable breakdowns at trackdays.

[Stu160]

the 211 is on the standard setup.

stu

[Shug]

Your issue with the upgrades is that you're upgrading to rose joints. These are fine if they are kept clean of dirt - and most kits come with boots. But the minute they are compromised, they deteriorate really quickly. The minute I put uprated (the Eliseparts kit) joints on mine, it was another service item to religiously check. Standard joints lasted about 8 years on the car with no maintenance needed and after fitting the uprated kit, most years I needed a couple of rose joints.

The originals are much better sealed against grit for everyday road use and the uprated are basically race items - therefore requiring more attention to ensure they are on the money. Any dirt and they start to get play.

Check them before and after trackdays with a quick wiggle and replace if they seize with standard ones, would probably be my advice. Unless you are taking the car down the semi-slick, massively stiffer suspension, hairy geo, kerb leaping route.

[mckeann]

I had standard ones break on mt ventoux, then the upgraded replacements break a year later.

If it were me, I'd upgrade to the eliseparts kit, and then make a point of renewing the bolts every year.

On mine, the ball joint/rose joint never seized, it was always where it bolted through the hub/upright that it went.

On the S1 with the Ali hub, that bolt is put into double shear so its stronger, but on the steel hubs you cannot do that, so just make a habit of changing the bolts regularly.


Neil


P.s on mt ventoux, when we inspected the standard kit, there was an obvious crack part way through the bolt, that had even there for a while. You would neve have seen it unless you stripped the toe link to inspect, so just giving it a wiggle won't work for that fault. Hence why I would make the bolts a service item

[BigD]

Makes sense Shug and I agree on the rose joints wearing much quicker than stock. The Evo had stock ball joints which lasted for as long as I had the car however the rose jointed drop links disintegrated after a year or 2. For a road car (i.e. not trailered) stock is definitely better.

Unless you are taking the car down the semi-slick, massively stiffer suspension, hairy geo, kerb leaping route.

Semi-slick - Check
Suspension - standard for on-road manners
Geo- aggressive but still road and tyre-wear compliant
Kerb Leaping - Check

So 2 out of 4 aint bad.

Stu - Interesting that the 211 is still on stock toe links, original ones? You had spare toe links with you when you had the VX at Spa did you not? Were these standard ones?

[BigD]

I had standard ones break on mt ventoux, then the upgraded replacements break a year later.

If it were me, I'd upgrade to the eliseparts kit, and then make a point of renewing the bolts every year.

On mine, the ball joint/rose joint never seized, it was always where it bolted through the hub/upright that it went.

On the S1 with the Ali hub, that bolt is put into double shear so its stronger, but on the steel hubs you cannot do that, so just make a habit of changing the bolts regularly.


Neil


P.s on mt ventoux, when we inspected the standard kit, there was an obvious crack part way through the bolt, that had even there for a while. You would neve have seen it unless you stripped the toe link to inspect, so just giving it a wiggle won't work for that fault. Hence why I would make the bolts a service item

That's what I needed to know but says a lot if stock lasted years then upgrade only lasted a year. I guess the other option would be to replace both outer balljoints now and every couple of years as these are about £90 a pair which is not too bad. The eliseparts kit is £300.

My car probably won't be used as much as yours was either and I'm more gentle on it than you were.

[mckeann]

its easier to change a bolt than it is a balljoint though as you could probably get away without redoing the geo. But agreed, the standard stuff is more resistant to wear

[Stephen]

I fitted the S1 ones I just did with m10 90mm cap bolts all round. They are a standard item and are pennies. The lock nuts are either k nuts or some other fangled heat resistant but that can be reused if you wish unlike nylocs. The best McGill rose joints were only £11 each so again cheap to replace.

[BigD]

Good points, the only difference I can see is the fact that the outer balljoint, the one that goes into the hub is tapered which is mentioned in the eliseparts kit. "Ours is the only one that is supplied with the correct conical spacer required for vehicles with STEEL HUBS especially the S2 Elise."

I would think a DIY kit with good quality rose joints and replaceable bolts could be a good option.

[Stephen]

Deroure sell the OE lotus tapered spacers for £5.09 Ea Hopefully this link works.
https://www.deroure.com/partinfo.asp?MA ... PBID=36447

[BigD]

Deroure sell the OE lotus tapered spacers for £5.09 Ea Hopefully this link works.
https://www.deroure.com/partinfo.asp?MA ... PBID=36447

I think they may be different as the S1 doesn't have a tapered ball joint going into the hub. It's the balljoint bolt that grips tighter when tightened which is why they can be difficult to get out. The eliseparts kit seems to supply one as in the pic below. (The large tapered spacers although this is quite an old pic) Although I'm not sure how critical the taper angle would be.



The current kit shows these.



I'm sure an expert who has fitted the kit will be along to tell us soon.

[Stephen]

If the shaft is tapered it is critical. I don't think it is though. Need to check.

[robin]

The critical points in the system are the outboard bolt-end of the ball joint and the inboard subframe mount point. The bar itself probably won't break unless you crash. The balljoints/rose joints might wear but also probably won't break in a catastrophic way. The bolt end, on the other hand, will fracture and crack as Neil pointed out, and when it lets go, the rear wheel will go all jaunty and you will struggle to control the car.

You should either dismantle to inspect or replace the outer ball joint periodically (the bolt is integral). If you go aftermarket you can obviously just replace the bolt.

When I asked a well known supplier of aftermarket upgrades for the elise what torque the outer bolt should be at, they didn't know and suggested it should be the same as the standard part. The standard part is unlikely to be the same tensile strength as the bolt they supplied ... you have been warned.

The inboard mount can "oval" if it has not been tightened properly - I know of at least one car that was this way from the factory and ended up with a new subframe in the end. Suggest you check that straight away. If the bolt is loose (or has stretched/bent) then the inboard ball joint will have a small amount of lateral play between the bolt and the subframe - obviously this is bad.

While you're at it is it best to replace the eight upper hub mount bolts also (two per corner). These should be replaced with the 10.9 grade bolt supplied by Lotus or an equivalent item. The 8.8 bolts fail regularly on track. If you're going R tyre, and given you will give the car a hard time on track, I suggest you replace these annually - it's no harder than unwinding to inspect, and a new bolt is always going to be better than an old bolt.

Cheers,
Robin

[BigD]

Thanks Robin, all makes sense even if you have given me yet more things to replace as a 'safety' measure.

Can you remember if the outer balljoint is tapered and hence a tapered seat in the hub? If so how do the kits you've used get round this? I'm assuming a tapered insert/spacer as the bolts are obviously not tapered.

Do you think it would be worthwhile replacing the balljoints with 'off the shelf' rose joints and bolts as this would seem to be the area that breaks? Then as you say replace the bolts annually. The only issue I have is the tapered outer balljoint but I'm sure a tapered insert could be sourced.

Just for info I had mine checked by Murrays and they were fine so no elongated holes but still feel I should change them at some point given the car is 10 years old (even if it does have low mileage).

[Stephen]

I'm pretty sure that the tapered aspects are the inboard washer / spacer between the ball joint and the subframe. ( this may be redundant if you install a double shear bracket) and the tapered spacer between the ball joint and the hub. Have a look at yours and establish if the hub on the S2 has a recess. If it does then I suggest either buy the spacer from Eliseparts or speak nicely to Stu. I opted for off the shelf rose joints to allow me to replace them cheaply if required rather than being stuck with a single supplier.