Honda conversion.

[ironside]

Presumably the ecu could be remapped anyway to balance the AFR with the new headers?

I don't believe it's possible to custom map the standard ECU . . .

The Hondata ECUs are "just" modified standard ECUs as opposed to complete after market replacements (like the Emerald, for example).
There's also a middle ground Hondata option called the K100 between the standard ECU and the K-Pro.
The difference is that the K-Pro has a USB port and can be used for data logging and mapping by the end user. The K100 is cheaper but can only be mapped by a Hondata dealer.

[Andy G]

Might sell mine

[robin]

The ECU should really always be re-mapped to the final Honda conversion in the car, both from the safety point of view of having the correct AFR, and also maximising the hp/tq output, it is mapped for a standard Civic Type-R, not an Elise configuration with a different exhaust manifold, exhaust system, and air filter.

You can easily lose 20hp over the Hondata mapped ECU as I found out on N1, BLiNK used the standard ECU whereas the other Convertors used the Hondata for which they had the equipment to re-map. There is no point in spending £10K on the conversion then not finishing it off properly for the sake of a couple of hundred.

tut

Unless you don't care about the 20BHP (which I don't) and you prefer the peace of mind that the factory calibration brings (cold start, idle control, emissions, blah blah blah). Of course it may be that the Hondata preserves all that normal running stuff and only messes with fuelling at higher engine speeds ... in which case fair enough.

I don't think the engine will run lean in normal operation (because the lambda sensor will be used to trim fuelling to match airflow - we're only talking a few percent here).

I don't know anything about the Honda ECU, but I imagine on wide open throttle it will run open loop, and I agree in that case it might run lean if the new exhaust manifold really does work a lot better than the normal CTR manifold, though it might still apply fuel trims.

I plan to get mine rolling road tested at some point in the not too distant future - I want to do a few more miles first to make sure the ECU has had time to learn the trims.

I'll be sure to get them to check the fuelling at around 80mph in 6th around the 100BHP output level - if it's not running lean then, you'll be fine on cruise IMHO.

Cheers,
Robin

[ironside]

Unless you don't care about the 20BHP (which I don't) and you prefer the peace of mind that the factory calibration brings (cold start, idle control, emissions, blah blah blah). Of course it may be that the Hondata preserves all that normal running stuff and only messes with fuelling at higher engine speeds ... in which case fair enough.

This is exactly what I was worried about when looking at ECU options for Honda conversions. I hated the hassle that came with the Emerald on my old car and didn't want to go through that again.
I agree with you completely, the MEMS would start the Rover engine whatever the weather in half a revolution. The Emerald could be as much hassle as a car on carbs in the dead of winter.

Luckily Hondata feel the same way: "Nothing runs a Honda engine as well as Honda ECU. End of story." That's what convinced me to go this way. You'll need to have a shot once it's done

[Dominic]

I must be one of the only ones who thinks Elise's should be left as Hethel created them

I would tend to agree with that sentiment. However, I do see a place for some sensible upgrades. For example, the original koni dampers don't do the car any justice. It's just a case of where you draw the line of what is worthy upgrades. I can see the relevance for some for going down the Honda route, especially for track purposes. I am quite happy with my K, and won't be changing it for a Honda. But can understand those who wish to. Afterall, it's their own car, to do with what they wish. If they feel that their driving skills need assistance with more power.....

[tut]

What a load of bollocks. You can not tune a K series with head mods, T/B, manifold, exhaust system, inlet, etc, and leave the standard ECU on, you need to fit an Emerald or equivalent on and re-map it, preferably by someone who knows what they are doing, and on a R/R. It is the basis of tuning an engine. It is why the likes of Dave Walker and Scuffham earn a living.

The same applies to a Honda conversion, I don't expect you to take any notice of me, but talk to those that know. An ECU can adapt up to a point, but once you start changing all the parameters you are taking it above what it is capable of. Each stage of a conversion, standard Honda engine, JDM, S/C, S/C CC, is going to require a different map, so how is one for all going to manage that?

tut

[robin]

Tut,

With respect, the engine is barely modified from the standard install. How many people de-cat a K-series Elise, put on a blah blah back box, some trick air filter but leave the ECU alone - their engines don't explode/burn holes in pistons/whatever else. That's all that you do when you install the Honda into the Elise.

Sure, if you supercharge it, or fit cams, etc., you're going to want a new ECU map, but for just an exhaust you don't *have* to remap it.

I'll bet there are plenty of exhaust/inlet "upgrades" for the CTR that people fit without remapping their ECUs.

The ECUs *have* to run fuel trims in order to cope with a wide range of fuels and also some variation between different engines of the same type. It's not a nice to have. It's a must have in order to comply with modern emissions requirements.

Anyway, it's easy enough to retrofit the Hondata bit, so IMHO there is nothing lost by waiting to find out if you actually need it.

Cheers,
Robin

[BigD]

Does the standard Honda ecu / engine have a knock sensor?

[tut]

As I was running in the Scottish Championships Robin, power output was more important to me.

With the standard Honda ECU I was getting 201HP at Dastek, after the re-map that went up to 220hp. The car was running fine before but a 20hp increase was worth having. Agreed that for normal usage if the car passes an MOT then the standard ECU is doing its job OK, but with a completely different exhaust manifold, mine was a 4 into 1, Jim's tubular exhaust, a much less restrictive filter, and no CAT, the whole flow passage would be improved and a re-map should take advantage of that. I presume that you are on the standard ECU, 4 into 2 manifold, Elise CAT, Hurricane, exhaust system??, and the car is running fine, smooth safe running is more important to you than extra power. Have you had an MOT yet?

I have kept a log of my fuel consumption in Quicken since 1999 with the first 118hp car (shut up pete), which was the one that gave me the best. With the Honda's it is now better with S/C CC 350hp than it was with N/A 220 and S/C 300, so they made a good job with the re-map, although a lot of money was spent getting there. On Sunday's fast road run I averaged 29mpg which was probably as good or better than any of the other cars on the day. I do not need or use that much power on the road but it came with the car. I do not need to go through the gears any more for either performance or to hear the noise from the revs and exhaust, quite happy to be able to leave it in 6th most of the time and let the power and torque do the job. On the track it is different as I use the full 8600rpm and make the most of the power, just do not drive at 100% nowadays as I need to pace myself more especially at the moment, and the "No Fear" factor is not what it was.

However I am still enjoying driving the car for whatever reason I climb into her, and will carry on for as long as I am able.

tut

[tut]

Yes it has a separate knock sensor Don, it is below the inlet manifold on the front of the engine and is round and usually green with a plug on it's body and it simply screws out.

tut

[BigD]

Yes it has a separate knock sensor Don, it is below the inlet manifold on the front of the engine and is round and usually green with a plug on it's body and it simply screws out.

tut

So if it runs lean and you get knock then the ecu will pull timing and add fuel. Ok that will reduce power but crucially it'll save the engine.

So safe to run on standard ecu without worrying about it blowing up. Ok it may not be full power but also not risky?

[TAMBO]

I have thought of the Honda conversion but it seems a shame sometimes to mess with an original car. I'm contemplating selling my S1 135 sport for something with a bit more power,I think it should be left as it is.

My car is number 50 on the chassis numbers from 1999.

Tam

[campbell]

IMHO, don't mess with the most revered Elise special. You might even be able to sell then buy a weary std S1 and convert to Honda all within the same budget...

[Dominic]

IMHO, don't mess with the most revered Elise special. You might even be able to sell then buy a weary std S1 and convert to Honda all within the same budget...

chassis number 50 will be the last of the initial batch of cars produced.

[TAMBO]

my car is the last of the first batch serial number ending 6001