Brexit.

[Scuffers]

WHY would you vote Out if you do not think it will make a difference?

I think a leave vote could be a brilliant opportunity to embrace a new outward looking Britain looking to regain it's place in the world and welcome everyone who wants to contribute no matter their colour.
A force for good, a force for progress, a force for change, a new shiny light bringing peace and happiness through technological enlightenment


However


We will still have that bunch of numpties incharge

Who will find a way to screw it up spectacularly


i don't vote for i think will make things better i vote for the option that is least likely to really screw it up.

sounds about right...

EU is a declining market, the only un-known is just how much longer it can limp on before total meltdown.

UK and Germany are the only two members not in decline (although we are hardly powering ahead), and if you look at the metrics of GDP/population we are in a worse place than we were 10+ years ago, only reason GDP is rising (slowly) is due to population increase - not a good thing (think pyramid scams).

only downside to leaving is the concern that are current political donkeys make a hash of exit, however, even that can't be worse than the impending doom of staying.

[Lazydonkey]

This week we're saying goodbye to an indian national who's worked for me for 4 years. He's been in the UK for 12 years, highly skilled, highly articulate and just a sound bloke. One of the most popular members of the team and just a machine when it comes to hard work.

Only a month ago his application for a visa continuation was denied.

So, after advice from his solicitor he applied to fast track citizenship.

This was denied and he was given 4 weeks to leave the country.

IN the background his wife's family were so appalled that he was giving up his Indian national status that they cleared his bank accounts and took her and the kids back to India.

In the space of a month his life has been completely destroyed.

Why does the fate of an Indian national matter to the Brexit campaign? Think about it......we vote out and what happens to the thousands of EU national that call this place home? Two doors along a greek born architect and his (also greek) interior designer wife have moved in. A nicer couple you couldn't hope to meet. They've lived in Glasgow for 10 years and it's home. They were bubbling over with enthusiasm for the country, the city and the location of their new home. They've been so friendly and kind to us and they have made such a fuss of Donkey Jnr and his obsession with their wee dog.

On what basis do we decide who stays and who goes? Do we draw a line in the sand and say "if you've been here x years and you earn Y you're ok?"

Who fills the gaps that they leave? I can't get decent Scottish developers to replace my Indian national for love nor money........am i to go to the job centre and see if someone from East Calder want's to come and join the team? My team in london has as many non-uk born staff as it does Uk born staff and it's brilliant. Every other week a delicacy of some sort is brought it from a visit "home". I've learnt about some bizarre traditions and celebrations. It's great, it makes life more interesting. Yes there are some arseholes from other EU countries but i can also introduce you to a load of arseholes form here.

I fcuk love this country. I love the fact that you can have a neighbour with a name that sounds like a firework going off. Who cares if there are polish shops in the high street? As long as they are busy i'd much prefer that to it being boarded up.

I guess what i'm saying is be careful what you wish for. I'm not seeing a heap of people lining up to take the place of the EU nationals whoi call this place home and i'm not sure i want the perma tanned ex pats back from "the english part of Marbella"

[woody]

I can only assume those who want to leave work for small businesses? The way we operate globally to leave makes, IMO, very little sense. Being part of the EU makes it so much easier to do business as we're constantly exporting & re-importing parts from all over; the larger business uses global centers of excellence. For COEs in the EU this means no red tape & outwith it we have an EU based framework to almost eliminate certain checks. Exiting the EU doesn't mean that business will return to the UK, it just puts our costs up Vs the developing world who are taking us on. From a people POV it means we get to have the Polish based design engineers on site (lots of mutual benefits), get our people out to support customers the same day.

Given what industry politicians of every type in the UK have managed to fcuk up in the later half of last century, I'm not sure it's the EU we should be looking at to blame.

If I thought exit was about a modern outward looking UK (ref thinforth above), I could, would, be persuaded to back it. I really swithered a couple of months ago and tended towards out. However, everything I've seen suggests the opposite is the case and for the majority of the out camp (not all) it's an exercise in navel gazing and mis-placed out of date patriotism.

[j2 lot]

Guys, your not helping me decide. I feel like I'm running backwards and forwards along a corridor not sure which door to go through. Reasoned opinions from people I know to be half sensible are useful. (Thanks )
It is sad that the campaigns can't offer sensible info and choose to go with branding people racist etc.

[thinfourth]

This week we're saying goodbye to an indian national who's worked for me for 4 years. He's been in the UK for 12 years, highly skilled, highly articulate and just a sound bloke. One of the most popular members of the team and just a machine when it comes to hard work.

Only a month ago his application for a visa continuation was denied.

So, after advice from his solicitor he applied to fast track citizenship.

This was denied and he was given 4 weeks to leave the country.

IN the background his wife's family were so appalled that he was giving up his Indian national status that they cleared his bank accounts and took her and the kids back to India.

In the space of a month his life has been completely destroyed.

Why does the fate of an Indian national matter to the Brexit campaign? Think about it......we vote out and what happens to the thousands of EU national that call this place home? Two doors along a greek born architect and his (also greek) interior designer wife have moved in. A nicer couple you couldn't hope to meet. They've lived in Glasgow for 10 years and it's home. They were bubbling over with enthusiasm for the country, the city and the location of their new home. They've been so friendly and kind to us and they have made such a fuss of Donkey Jnr and his obsession with their wee dog.

On what basis do we decide who stays and who goes? Do we draw a line in the sand and say "if you've been here x years and you earn Y you're ok?"

Who fills the gaps that they leave? I can't get decent Scottish developers to replace my Indian national for love nor money........am i to go to the job centre and see if someone from East Calder want's to come and join the team? My team in london has as many non-uk born staff as it does Uk born staff and it's brilliant. Every other week a delicacy of some sort is brought it from a visit "home". I've learnt about some bizarre traditions and celebrations. It's great, it makes life more interesting. Yes there are some arseholes from other EU countries but i can also introduce you to a load of arseholes form here.

I fcuk love this country. I love the fact that you can have a neighbour with a name that sounds like a firework going off. Who cares if there are polish shops in the high street? As long as they are busy i'd much prefer that to it being boarded up.

I guess what i'm saying is be careful what you wish for. I'm not seeing a heap of people lining up to take the place of the EU nationals whoi call this place home and i'm not sure i want the perma tanned ex pats back from "the english part of Marbella"

The population is rightly or wrongly are concerned about immigration.

Due to being in the EU we have zero control over now the numbers coming from the EU

So how can our leaders reduce immigration? To win votes and be seen to be doing something.

They send your Indian worker home.


Is he worth more to the country then 10 Eastern European fruit pickers

Probably

Is it fair he is being sent home

Nope

Is it related to the EU

Yep as we can't kick an Eastern European fruit kicker out so the Indian worker is the easy option.


As a racist I would rather we had your Indian worker than a home grown useless feckers

[thinfourth]

only downside to leaving is the concern that are current political donkeys make a hash of exit, however, even that can't be worse than the impending doom of staying.

I expect a deal where we end up paying more, have less control over immigration, pay more to export and less say in EU rules while we have to obey all of them.

If they don't sign us up to use the Euro as part of the year exit deal I'll be surprised

[istoo]

IN

my lefty thoughts for the evil scum

Brexit wasnt called to raise the Scottish referendum again but it was raised Cameron as his own party is torn on this (and has been for decades), moreso in recent years with the rise of the further right parties within the UK. UKIP etc making their presence more felt, just where does the line of right wing politics stop? What will be more interesting is to what will happen to the losing half of the conservative party in the UK as a whole. The only comparison with the Scottish referendum is that the SNP had their entire party going one way, the UK's current main party is divided. Much like last year you present 50% of the population wiuth one view and 50% with an opposing view. That breeds the best and worst in people. That is a much bigger issue imho. I believe we will see an emergence of either the conversatives being firmly right of centre and another element being somewhere between UKIP/conservatives. The political landscape is changing, whether its Scotland or Brexit, its changing.

As an observer and reader on the whole landscape for the past month, what has been eye opening for me has been the shift in one word between Scottish Referendum and the Brexit Referendum. Nationailism, it has much darker undertones this time round, events yesterday made that more chilling.

Although a Yes voter in the Scottish referendum, my decision so far is simple, I cant see any economic advantage in leaving. Also, laugh as you may, peace. I do believe the EU (and the other collective bodies) have helped keep Europe from war. And for all the above reasons, that troubles our futures far far greater Scotland Independence.

A more appropriate question is if England go out of UEFA cup in the first round, I believe that will have a bigger influence to Brexit that anything the SNP chooses to say or do.

[c8rkh]

Interesting points ISTOO. As a NO voter I found the whole Indyref very dark indeed and was accused of many things in public places, the most outrageous being called a traitor for buying a bottle of "english" mineral water - I just picked the first one up from the shelf in the garage without looking! Every NO campaign sign in our area was vandalised and people refused to put NO stickers on their cars for fear of the cars being vandalised. Any local discussion that challenged a "yes" point of view was verbally drowned out and shouted down. It was just lovely, not. Freedom of thought or speech was often severely frowned upon unless of course it was to back independence. Why is this relevant. Well, to be honest many of the tactics used by YES to drown out the NO's are being deployed to the same good effect by the REMAIN parties and leaders. I wonder if it will work this time around too?

Referendums are always divisive and always will be. By their very nature they can split families (well, those in families that are allowed to actually think for themselves as apart from being "teld wit tae do". BREXIT is no different.

I'll be interested in the result. I know how I will vote. But in the end, I doubt very little will actually change.

[Scuffers]

IN

my lefty thoughts for the evil scum

Brexit wasnt called to raise the Scottish referendum again but it was raised Cameron as his own party is torn on this (and has been for decades), moreso in recent years with the rise of the further right parties within the UK. UKIP etc making their presence more felt, just where does the line of right wing politics stop? What will be more interesting is to what will happen to the losing half of the conservative party in the UK as a whole. The only comparison with the Scottish referendum is that the SNP had their entire party going one way, the UK's current main party is divided. Much like last year you present 50% of the population wiuth one view and 50% with an opposing view. That breeds the best and worst in people. That is a much bigger issue imho. I believe we will see an emergence of either the conversatives being firmly right of centre and another element being somewhere between UKIP/conservatives. The political landscape is changing, whether its Scotland or Brexit, its changing.

As an observer and reader on the whole landscape for the past month, what has been eye opening for me has been the shift in one word between Scottish Referendum and the Brexit Referendum. Nationailism, it has much darker undertones this time round, events yesterday made that more chilling.

Although a Yes voter in the Scottish referendum, my decision so far is simple, I cant see any economic advantage in leaving. Also, laugh as you may, peace. I do believe the EU (and the other collective bodies) have helped keep Europe from war. And for all the above reasons, that troubles our futures far far greater Scotland Independence.

A more appropriate question is if England go out of UEFA cup in the first round, I believe that will have a bigger influence to Brexit that anything the SNP chooses to say or do.

Really?

EU stopped war in Europe? so Bosnia and Ukraine have not happened then? (both arguably caused by EU stupidity).

and NATO does not exist?

This is before you get to the bit about southern med countries being returned to the 3rd world with massive unemployment and financial meltdown?

Or the UK getting more and more massive bills from the EU to bail out said countries? (and don't try and claim we have not)

then we get to trade - so no trade can happen outside of the EU? funny that, never seems to cause the US or China any issues - and that's before you consider the EU is a financially shrinking market (and as the UK is the single biggest customer market in the EU, just imagine how small it will be if we left?)

Want another go?

[Mikie711]

If you take a slightly longer view I think the Brexit question will become irrelevant. If you look back at the Greek crisis and how close it came to collapsing the EU and the fact that they and, as Scuffers mentioned, quite a few others are on the brink of financial collapse then I think the writing is on the wall for the EU. I doubt it would survive the exit of one member country in the manner that Greece nearly did.

I disagree with c8rkh, I think the remain camp are using the fear tactics exactly as the No campaign did in the referendum. I watched a program on the methods employed by both sides after the referendum and they said that people respond to fear more than positive stimuli and was deemed a more affective strategy. The remain camp are all about what we will lose, pensions, jobs, tax hike etc etc. Likely it will work this time round again.

[tut]

Are you home Mike?

Remain Campaign is certainly mostly based on fear, Exit at least incorporates hope and change. As I said, my vote is made rather simply, at my stage in life why take a chance when it is working fine as is?

tut

[robin]

Both sides employ fear. Mr Forage's picture of Syrian refugees crossing the border (to Turkey, I think) and then portraying them as potential EU immigrants is, at best, scaremongering (not to mention those people are refugees - even the most brain damaged 'nationalist' wouldn't argue to "send them home").

I don't know what the total cost to the UK of participating in euro bailouts has been - Simon, what is the amount? It's hard to decide whether it's relevant or not without knowing what the number is.

Cheers,
Robin

[tut]

Come to think of it I have not watched any of it, particularly Nige.

Most of it is hot air based and I had already made my choice, so what would have been the point?

tut

[campbell]

The SNP deployed hope and change, Tut. Then the oil price collapsed. Fear or prudence. What's the difference?

[Mikie711]

Yep, I am home tut.

Robin, The UK has provided a total of £5bn via the EU for two bailouts: €3bn for Ireland in November 2010 and €3.5bn for Portugal in May 2011.
The UK has not made a contribution via the EU for the other eurozone bailouts: the three Greek ones, in 2010, 2012 and 2015 and for the Spain and Cyprus bailouts in 2012.
So very little in the grand scheme of things.

Still sitting on the fence, not seen anything here or else where that makes me want to vote either way. Like everything there are advantages and disadvantages to being in the EU. The only thing that appeals to me is a weaker pound but only because I am paid in USD and the benefit would likely be short lived anyway.
I think we would survive and prosper out but not without some heart ache in the form of possible tax increases which I definitely don't want.