Has anybody changed their vote about independence??

[Mikie711]

I belive there is no right side to nationalism

It is a dogma that teaches you to hate people you have never met and be proud in things you never did.

I guess it just depends which way you look at it. I am Scottish first and British second and proud of both. There is nowhere in the world I would rather stay and I have bee fortunate enough to see quite a lot of it.
I currently work in a country that really does hate outsiders, not at a personnel level but at a national level. They firmly believe that all jobs, money, assets should belong to them regardless of the fact they neither have the expertise or knowledge to manage the assets. And despite the picture portrayed here we are a world away from the worst I have experienced in my travels.

That being said the situation is far from ideal and it saddens me that our once great little country once renown for its hospitality and friendship has descended into this pointless mire.
I agree that the mindset starts in the playground, some grow out of it and embrace the cultural mix of our small corner of the world and some don't.
And just to add balance I have experienced similar treatment south of the border on several occasions when staying with friends and family. Bedford was the worst of it but it didn't really bother me even though it resulted in a rather tense hour running through a strange town trying to avoid getting caught so it isn't endemic to Scotland. The current political climate just seems to bring it to the fore which detracts from the real issues we face.
IMHO the independence debate is used as deflection to hide how ineffective the Scottish Parliament really is. They bicker and squabble about everything and accomplish very little when there is so much they really need to focus on.

[Rosssco]

I agree with what Mike says above, and specifically the point on that the current prominence of certain nationalistic political parties, both in Scotland with the SNP, and the UK / England with UKIP, simply provides a form of justification to those people already predisposed to the forms of backwards, tribalist behaviour some seem to have unfortunately experienced.

The "rabble rousing" and emotive language used (by all politicians to be fair, but far more prevalent in nationalist parties) is what p**ses me off the most, as it really serves no purpose other than to motivate and puff-up those who are already converts, and adds zero to any reasoned debate.

[j2 lot]

That being said the situation is far from ideal and it saddens me that our once great little country once renown for its hospitality and friendship has descended into this pointless mire.

IMHO the independence debate is used as deflection to hide how ineffective the Scottish Parliament really is. They bicker and squabble about everything and accomplish very little when there is so much they really need to focus on.

2 sentences that pretty much sum up the situation we are currently in.
I keep hearing about Independence and wonder what it is that the SNP actually want - they sure as hell won't be Independant as part of Europe

[thinfourth]

I belive there is no right side to nationalism

It is a dogma that teaches you to hate people you have never met and be proud in things you never did.

I guess it just depends which way you look at it. I am Scottish first and British second and proud of both..

[c8rkh]

Nice quote. Very true. Nationalism rarely promotes friendliness and rarely unites. Whether it is English, Scottish, Irish, Spanish or whatever.

Would be great to get some real insights and answers from both the SNP re the real picture for an independent Scotland and it's place in the world, and from Westminster for the same re the UK post Brexit. Sadly I feel we will wait a long time from both for the clarity of vision and the FACTS to go with it.

[kenny]

I find it really quite bizarre that anyone would consider leaving Scotland because of another referendum vote. I am sanguine about the whole thing. Let's just say Scotland had voted to leave last time around - what difference would it have made to me or my family? A bit of a marginal difference in corporation or personal tax, perhaps, other than that, didly squat. Scotland is a great place to live - fantastic scenery, brilliant for outdoor sports, vibrant music and cultural scene - you name it. None of that will change a whole lot in or out of the UK or in or out of the EU. If you are well off and living in a liberal democracy the truth is that what the politicians do has only very limited real effect on your daily life. Chill and focus on the people around you and the choices you make about your own life - far, far more important than all the political sh*t!

Quoted the whole post for context but the bit in bold is the part I am addressing.

I am a structural engineer and an awful lot of my projects are private funded, in recent times a lot of large grade A offices. The funding comes via large pension funds, predominantly English based. Do you have a pension? Are you aware they have to invest that money in order to provide a return on your contributions when you retire?

As I have already noted on this thread, several of our projects have stalled because of ongoing uncertainty in the Scottish market. The feedback we have been given is, while Scotland is ripe for investment and development, the funders simply have no idea how their investment can be controlled. If you were in charge of a multi-billion pensions fund where would you invest, a gauranteed safe return in a market you fully understand or a total unknown where a government may decide new tax grabs on 'foreign' investors and bat-sht crazy economy based on borrowing more money than we can afford?

The worst recession in living memory, which hit my industry hard, follow that with 6-7 years of neverendums. A decade of stagnation in the Scottish construction market. England, and London in particular, is booming by the way.

I'd happily pay a couple of % more tax if that is all it took to make this crap go away.

But, aye, it's just politcal sh*t and doesn't mean diddly squat.

[thinfourth]

As I have already noted on this thread, several of our projects have stalled because of ongoing uncertainty in the Scottish market. The feedback we have been given is, while Scotland is ripe for investment and development, the funders simply have no idea how their investment can be controlled. If you were in charge of a multi-billion pensions fund where would you invest, a gauranteed safe return in a market you fully understand or a total unknown where a government may decide new tax grabs on 'foreign' investors and bat-sht crazy economy based on borrowing more money than we can afford?
.

I have listened to a high ranking SNP member of the local branch

Apparently the plan is the Scottish government will seize all property and it will be rented out to those deemed worthy



Just want kind of freedom are these people dreaming of ?

Is it the kind of freedom with razor wire and watch towers to stop you escaping utopia

[Mikie711]

Posting one persons interpretation of two words doesn't mean they are right. In fact I don't agree with either statement in your Facebook snippet.

The dictionary defines both as:

nationalism |ˈnaʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m|
noun [mass noun]
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts: an early consciousness of nationalism and pride.
• an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries: playing with right-wing nationalism.
• advocacy of political independence for a particular country: Scottish nationalism.

patriotism |ˈpeɪtrɪətɪz(ə)m|
noun [mass noun]
the quality of being patriotic; vigorous support for one's country: a highly decorated officer of unquestionable integrity and patriotism.

Which bears little resemblance to what was posted.
I fail to see what your trying to achieve other than continually bash the SNP which has little to do with the title of the thread. But then that is all you ever seem to post.

Apparently the plan is the Scottish government will seize all property and it will be rented out to those deemed worthy

You should get a job with the sun or star. So the SNP are communists now as well FFS.

[kenny]

Excellent quote fail. Thanks for that

[steve_weegie]

Apparently the plan is the Scottish government will seize all property and it will be rented out to those deemed worthy



And all pension fund managers will be forced to declare their politcal alegiance, and therefore risk appetite, to investors.

That any better Kenny?

[istoo]

I belive there is no right side to nationalism

It is a dogma that teaches you to hate people you have never met and be proud in things you never did.

I guess it just depends which way you look at it. I am Scottish first and British second and proud of both..

I think the word you were looking for was fascism. Which is what I was alluding to in my last post. Mike has summarized the rest very well.

[istoo]

Apparently the plan is the Scottish government will seize all property and it will be rented out to those deemed worthy



And all pension fund managers will be forced to declare their politcal alegiance, and therefore risk appetite, to investors.

That any better Kenny?

indeed!

[Rosssco]

I guess "patriotism" is a generally positive term (especially in our Americanised [Americanized?] media) where as "nationalism" (especially for Europeans) is generally negative in its connotations!

I prefer the term "Rationalist, not a Nationalist.."

[Jamie Satriani]

I prefer the term "Rationalist, not a Nationalist.."

Absolutely.


There are good reasons to hold-off on another referendum that Sturgeon will find difficult to counter without sounding reckless and petulant, and all the while the clock ticks on their record in government. Sillars and MacAskill are correct - Sturgeon should be working on being a shining beacon of competence so that they can justify being in charge of a post-Brexit independent Scotland, instead of appearing to be in a rush to get over the line before they get found out.

[Mikie711]

The only positive that will come out of the current attempt at independence will be the downfall of Sturgeon. She started out looking like a viable first minister but has fallen foul of the SNP massive.