HGF? (pics)

tuscan_thunder · Post by **tuscan_thunder** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:18 am

I'll second Craig's advice -

my sister's Ka (now mine and now for sale) looked like it had HGF but all it needed was run for a decent length of time. Gave it a reasonably hard run for about an hour and all was well

robin · Post by **robin** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:29 am

Absolutely - I wasn't suggesting taking them to bits for the sake of it - but if you do end up having to take them to bits, you really should get the heads sorted (as in more performance with a skim as a side effect).

Also, what I didn't say but should have, is that if your liner heights are wrong (as in they are below the block height or only just flush with it) you probably shouldn't waste money on putting the engine back together without getting the block machined, liner heights set properly and then rebuild.

Stu - do you offer the block machining work too?

I am wondering whether it's cost effective for a 75,000 mile engine to rebuild it like that vs. replacing with a new bottom end completely? The labour and miscellaneous materials to strip and rebuild the block and bottom end is certainly not insubstantial if you aren't doing it yourself.

Cheers,
Robin

vet111s · Post by **vet111s** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:30 pm

Cheers for the advice. Levels seem the same as last night which can only be good. Spoke to someone at service dept at MMC and he too suggested hole in rad. Gonna keep an eye on the levels for now (and engine temp!) and see how things go.
Wheres the best place to source S1 K coolant? Would be good to have some spare!

Ali

Post by **campbell** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:40 pm

Pentland Components, just around the corner from Murray. Google will give you their website with location maps and phone nos (they also have branches elsewhere in Edin)

Campbell

Stu160 · Post by **Stu160** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:07 pm

Hi Robin

Yes,I can.I skim the liner seats,50mm inside the block first,the skim the top of the block to give a standproud of .13-.17mm.

It is a lot of work to strip the engine down to do this,but if the heights are not right,as Robin has said,you are just waisting your time.

Stu

Post by **campbell** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:12 pm

What kind of cost does this involve for average Joe Punter then? Just rough...not looking for a binding quote or owt!

Stu160 · Post by **Stu160** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:33 pm

If you give me the block stripped,it is £50.
Skim the head £30 .
Dowel the ladder to the block(another 4 dowels) £40
I would also fit the new style Land Rover oil rail as well,it is only about £50 and also lets you use the new type head gasket.

Any more questions ,just ask

While you are at it,I would also fit a set of cams,plenty of second hand ones about.

Stu

Post by **campbell** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:55 pm

OK so £120 for the "engineering cleanup job" excluding Landy oil rail n gasket (regular gasket is fine by me I reckon...the Landy one looks like Darth Vader after a crash diet!).

So if an engine bottom-end lets go, and one can identify some pals to remove and refit it (including splitting and refitting head etc) then we are talking way, way less than a new engine to get the old one kicked back into shape, yes?

But what about the actual "bottom end"...crankshaft, pistons and whatever other gubbins could be getting a bit worn? Do you need to worry about them? What's that "forged pistons" lark all about, etc?

So many questions!

Campbell

PS - lairy cams ain't for me...not yet at least

tut · Post by **tut** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:09 pm

Campbell

Forged pistons do not really come into it until you are over 180hp, and are only needed if you want to rev beyond 7500 and are looking for even more power.

If a block has been stripped down it is always worth fitting new rings and bearing shells for the cost of parts involved, but steel crankshafts at £1500 are again only needed when you are looking at high HP/rpm.

tut

Stu160 · Post by **Stu160** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:11 pm

If you were going to go the whole hog,new liners are about £25 each (if you can get them) a new set of pistons around £450 (forged) Not sure how much for OE ones,much cheeper than that I think,and if you are sticking to the standard ecu,they will be fine.
If you are carefull taking it all apart the shells will normally be OK.

Also want to strip the head,and grind in the valves,and fit new stem oil seals.

I would recon the whole job would be under £1000 ,so a lot less than a new engine.

A set of mild cams will run on standard ECU and run just the same,just give you a bit more 6000 rpm.

Stu

Post by **campbell** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:00 am

Thanks fellas.

So what do you define as a "mild cam"...examples?

My head has already been stripped, and fully reworked by "Kiwi Rog" at Sabre Heads, with new inlet valves and re-shaped seats for inlets and exhausts. Tops of the chambers have been reshaped around valves to improve flow, inlets have been ported a bit. Can't say what happened with stem oil seals... Robin might know though, as he commissioned the work on my behalf

I've got some pics which I will assemble to show the whole project once fully complete, running (and re-dyno'd for proof of effects).

Sticking with standard cams for now, but am interested to hear more about the "mild" thing mentioned above.

The great fire-up should be tonight, if we can get the coolant refilled and bled OK. It's been a marathon right enough...

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:03 am

I have Piper 270s on standard lifters, valves and ECU with no issues. It was timed very carefully using all the available resources and I reckon this is where most of the gains were made....

Campbell: Do you have a 4-2-1? Made a real difference to tractability and drivability to mine.

robin · Post by **robin** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:13 am

Campbell,

Your head has new oil stem seals and new cam seals.

Cheers,
Robin

Post by **campbell** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:20 am

Ta Robin, knew about the cam seals right enough

Richard, I have standard manifold just now, had a 4-2-1 in back of my mind but believe they add a fair bit of noise? Currently got a plan to put standard S2 manifold and downpipe in place as next improvement but doing stage by stage to be able to see / show changes in performance at each point.

So is a Piper 270 a "mild" cam? Do they get any milder before they become standard again?!

Rich H · Post by **Rich H** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:29 am

I think they are as mild as they get certainly with piper. Don't think 4-2-1 adds any noise, changes it a bit though, but no louder.